What is the nitrate tolerance for discus?

[Seecher]

I moved this question from another thread because
I thought it was important enough to have its own
title and discussion.

Perhaps, the most important reason for regular water
changes is nitrate pollution of our aquarium's. To
gauge whether or not the nitrates are dangerously
high we have to determined what the tolerance
for nitrate in discus REALLY is.

What is the nitrate tolerance for discus? At what
level do nitrates have to climb before the fish die?

Hans gave us his observations below, thank you Hans

Probably nobody has
measured it. But I've seen adults in water over 80
ppm of nitrates, heavy breathing and darkened but
still alive and eating.

Discus are not as sensitive for nitrates as people
suspect them to be. 30 ppm seem to be fully
acceptable for adults, whereas otos have become to
die within 1-2 months.
Hans

The following table is useful.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/ar...pt_id=&aid=758

60 parts per million nitrate is recommended for
freshwater aquarium's.

If any of you have access to Discus Brief could you
please check out the following issue and the four
articles that I think are relevant to this discussion.
If you could please post the author's conclusions
that would be appreciated. Thank you very much.

Volume IV - Issue I - Spring 1997

Nitrates - How Harmful are they Really?
Horst Kohler, Germany
Translator: William Charlton

Nitrate Recommendations in Aquarium Books
Compiled by: Horst Kohler, Germany

High Nitrate Content - No Problem
Otto Harringer, Austria
Translator: William Charlton

Nitrogen Compounds in Aquarium Water
Horst Kohler
Translator: William Charlton

[Hans Kloss]

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/ar...pt_id=&aid=758

60 parts per million nitrate is recommended for
freshwater aquarium's.
[...]
If you could please post the author's conclusions
that would be appreciated.

Diane Walstad: "Ecology of planted aquarium" 2nd edition, Echinodorus Publishing, page 62:
"Nitrification is the two-step process whereby ammonia which is toxic is converted to nitrate, which is not toxic. [...] For example Spotte reports that 400 mg/l (!!!!) of NO3 did not affect the growth or mortality of two freshwater fish, largemouth bass and channel catfish."
By me it is one big misunderstanding. Nitrates are NOT toxins, they are only quite fair total water pollution indicators.
Of course discus are not basses or catfish. Of course nitrates can inhibit young discus growth. But nitrates are relatively save for adult discus fish.
So, if all above is true, why your discus become sick after nitrates reach 20 ppm or higher level? Having only 1 year experience with keeping discus in US style (with neglecting water hardness and its pH) I can suspect only- Your fish are infected by pathogenic protozoans and/or worms. If not, your fish exhibit excessive mucus production in hard/basic water. This mucus is a medium for pathogenic bacteria growth which eventually infect your fish gills, skin and fins. It is probably the reason why you can keep healthy discus only using enormous WC.
Hans

[Don Trinko]

I was told by a well known breeder/dealer that I should keep my nitrates below 20 for discus. I have a book on fish disease that say's that nitrate poisoning starts at 200! I keep my discus tanks around 5.
I have some severum also. They start to get dark somewhere around 40 so I try to keep that tank below 20. I have other fish including angles that seem to do fine with nitrates of 60 to 80.
Whether the fish are actualy reacting to the nitrates or to other things in the water that acumulate because of fewer wc is a good question. Don T.

[Kindredspirit]

Whether the fish are actualy reacting to the nitrates or to other things in the water that acumulate because of fewer wc is a good question. Don T.

Well I bet that at the end of the day, most problems stem from insufficient wc ~ if you don't do consistent wc, there will be fish waste build up and then..."other things" ~ the Nitrates build higher....

( Or do I have this completely wrong? )

~ then ~ some could have a whole new world of hurt. The only way to avoid even worrying about high Nitrates, is do you dayum water changes!

I can not even tell you when I tested my water last, hontestly


Marie ~

[Tropical Haven]

I couldn't tell you the last time I tested my water either because I religously change my water 70% every other day in my discus tanks.

[Polar_Bear]

By me it is one big misunderstanding. Nitrates are NOT toxins, they are only quite fair total water pollution indicators.

I think Hans has the correct answer here. I have had juvenile discus in water with over 100 ppm NO3 which was artificially induced (plant fertilizer) they showed not the least discomfort. NO3 is a good indicator of water quality, but is not a toxin in and of itself.

[brewmaster15]

Nitrates in the wild are less than 1 PPM in the soft acid waters of the Amazon River..... That says all I need to know...less is best...


....so Nitrates have no adverse Biological effect? this is news to me! Makes me feel much better about Nitrates in drinking water...lol I guess the feds here over reacted with that 10-PPM guideline. Either that or fish are just constructedly biologically different from other vertebrates.... sorry I don't buy it.

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/facts-sl...eef-grw85.html

By me it is one big misunderstanding. Nitrates are NOT toxins, they are only quite fair total water pollution indicators.
Of course discus are not basses or catfish. Of course nitrates can inhibit young discus growth. But nitrates are relatively save for adult discus fish.

How can they not be toxins and still inhibit the growth of young discus???


Funny isn't it... In human infants...Their biology allows for Nitrates to be converted to Nitrite and they get brown blood disease and serious health issues..

Now we have the observation of nitrates inhibiting the growth of young discus (something I have heard before btw..) coincidence? maybe... still...


How can they be relatively safe? Not trying to be a stickler but every text out there states that they are relatively safe..but thats in comparison to the more toxic nitrite and ammonia and is presented in the scope of biological filtration...not biology specifically. Relatively safe means little when its not in a context.

Toxins need not have a dramatic effect to be a toxin... a mild toxin can have serious long term effects. Fish like discus did not evolve dealing with Nitrates.. its been a known fact that different species of fish deal with nitrate levels differently......

I know theres thousands of articles out there about Nitrates.....but I guess I like this one because it fits in with my thoughts

The paper also explains that even fairly low levels can have adverse effects if organisms are exposed to them for long periods.

Just 10ppm of nitrate-nitrogen (that's a mere 3.03 ppm of nitrate) has been shown to have adverse effects on salmonids such as Oncorhynchus mykiss, Oncorhynchus tshawytscha and Salmo clarki, as well as upon a number of freshwater invertebrates and frogs.

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.u...m.php?news=560

hth,
al

[Hans Kloss]

Nitrates in the wild are less than 1 PPM in the soft acid waters of the Amazon River..... That says all I need to know...less is best...

Ca2+ and Mg2+ in the wild are also less than 1 ppm. Do you agree with your "less is best" it this case too? Seriously this lead us to nowhere...

....so Nitrates have no adverse Biological effect?

Of course they have. The question is: what nitrate concentration show explicit negative effect on (adult) discus?

Makes me feel much better about Nitrates in drinking water...lol I guess the feds here over reacted with that 10-PPM guideline.

It is 45 ppm of NO3 which is equivalent to 10 ppm of nitrate NITROGEN. 45 ppm of nitrates is much too much for discus, but your children can drink it with no fear (no methemoglobinemia was observed). Personally I DON'T drink our municipal water if NO3 is higher than 10 ppm.

How can they not be toxins and still inhibit the growth of young discus???

Young discus growth is also inhibited by:
- too high pH
- too low pH
- too low oxygen in water
- to high salinity (TDS)
- improper feeding
- too high CO2 concentration
- too low temperature
- and other factors

None of the mentioned above (except of CO2) can be considered to be toxin.

Just 10ppm of nitrate-nitrogen (that's a mere 3.03 ppm of nitrate) has been shown to have adverse effects on salmonids

Sorry brew, but if somebody can do such simple arithmetical mistake (10 ppm of NO3-N is equivalent to 44.3 ppm of NO3 ion, not 3.03 ppm) then he's not worthy to be quoted. Trust but verify...

Either that or fish are just constructedly biologically different from other vertebrates.... sorry I don't buy it

Put your money on the table . Freshwater fish are really unique vertebrates- they don't need to drink water, saltwater fish need it .
And last but not least- I'm familiar with real trustworthy expert on water purity. Gymnarchus niloticus cannot lie and I believe him.
Hans

[brewmaster15]

Hans,

That article was written by a real lab...

Camargo JA, Alonso A, Salamanca A. (2005) - Nitrate toxicity to aquatic animals: a review with new data for freshwater invertebrates. Chemosphere. 2005 Mar; 58(9): 1255-67.

Suit yourself on the Nitrates.. and best of luck on the plenum tank of yours to remove these harmless nitrates.LOl

I'll stick with my Biology thanks. Nitrate is a Toxin.

BTW>>>

Put your money on the table . Freshwater fish are really unique vertebrates- they don't need to drink water, saltwater fish need it

you need not drink a toxin when you have gills.

-al

[Seecher]

Judging by the input so far it looks like a discus can take nitrate
levels of 30/40 parts per million before any concern to the fishes
health is even remotely possible (from nitrate pollution). I realize
that these high nitrate levels may be an algae problem, but then
again that's another thread these can be handled by some of our
really fantastic filters available today.

Could it be said that automatic water changes when nitrate levels
reached 10/5 parts per million is an overreaction and waste water?

What responsibility do we have as discus keepers to use water
only as necessary? Draconian water changes are not necessary
for the discus they seem to only be something that the fish
keeper their wants to do. Is that responsible water usage?

By the way I took some pictures of my fish. Try and figure out
how to upload those. My White Butterflies spawned last night
and they have a clutch of eggs that they are tending, I have a
picture of those. Interesting... spawning in an aquarium that
hasn't had a water change in the months.

[brewmaster15]

Judging by the input so far it looks like a discus can take nitrate
levels of 30/40 parts per million before any concern to the fishes
health is even remotely possible (from nitrate pollution). I realize
that these high nitrate levels may be an algae problem, but then
again that's another thread these can be handled by some of our
really fantastic filters available today.

Could it be said that automatic water changes when nitrate levels
reached 10/5 parts per million is an overreaction and waste water?

What responsibility do we have as discus keepers to use water
only as necessary? Draconian water changes are not necessary
for the discus they seem to only be something that the fish
keeper their wants to do. Is that responsible water usage?

By the way I took some pictures of my fish. Try and figure out
how to upload those. My White Butterflies spawned last night
and they have a clutch of eggs that they are tending, I have a
picture of those. Interesting... spawning in an aquarium that
hasn't had a water change in the months.

Seecher,
and this is what I find interesting...

6 people post, 3 are water changers...and you ignore their views... one (polar) mentions that he had juvies in 100PPM but doesn't say for how long.. and who also is a water change proponent and theres one that sees things your way.. and you can draw conclusions .

Judging by the input so far it looks like a discus can take nitrate
levels of 30/40 parts per million before any concern to the fishes
health is even remotely possible (from nitrate pollution).

where that conclusion came from is beyound me....but it is IMO ...not a fair and accurate assessment in the least.

-al

[Seecher]

Seecher,
and this is what I find interesting...

6 people post, 3 are water changers...and you ignore their views... one (polar) mentions that he had juvies in 100PPM but doesn't say for how long.. and who also is a water change proponent and theres one that sees things your way.. and you can draw conclusions .
where that conclusion came from is beyound me....but it is IMO ...not a fair and accurate assessment in the least.

-al

If you intimating that I'm biased in this discussion, you
are absolutely correct, but I am keeping an open mind
to this subject.

Hopefully, people can make their own decisions based upon
our discussions.

I hope that we can get a couple dozen more well founded
comments. So far there is no documentation that absolutely
proves that REGULAR water changes does anything but please
the fish keeper. I have been investigating this subject for many
years I have not found one document that scientifically proves
that REGULAR water changes are vital to discus health,
maintaining correct water parameters certainly is important but
those can be accomplished without REGULAR water changes.
There are a lot of people that have opinions but they got those
opinions from somebody else, the who got those opinions from
somebody else, etc and etc.

The one thing that I know for sure is that my discus are quite
healthy living in an environment of around 20 parts per million
nitrate and weekly tank cleaning with replacement of 2/4 gal. of
properly balanced ro water. But I'm not saying everyone should
do what I'm doing it just proves to me that this discussion is right
on track.

[Tropical Haven]

[brewmaster15]

seecher,

The one thing that I know for sure is that my discus are quite
healthy living in an environment of around 20 parts per million
nitrate and weekly tank cleaning with replacement of 2/4 gal. of
properly balanced ro water. But I'm not saying everyone should
do what I'm doing it just proves to me that this discussion is right
on track.

Open minded? Doesn't look that way here...

I've asked you this question before... what kind of filter are you using? I can't see how 4 adult in a 30 gal tank and your water changes, with no live plants can only be 20PPM... its not possible... Your Nitrates should be much higher.. You mentioned that you were saving for a Nitrate filter.. and you use plastic plants... What test kit do you use and how often are you monitoring these?

Your ammonia and Nitrites are constants making nitrate... How are you keeping those nitrates low and not doing water changes.

-al

[Don Trinko]

It would be nice if there was a "discus test kit". You could test your water and 5 or below would guarantee healthy discus, 5 to 10 your discus might get sick, and above 10 death is certain......But there isn't! I use nitrates as that test. I recognize that there are other harmfull things in the water but as far as I know there are no tests for these things. I have spent a lot of time reading WC threads. I started with what many would consider insufficient WC and gradualy upped my WC. My fish are healthy and growing so I must be close to correct.

I thing why many disagree so much is that conditions are different: If you have a crowded tank with juvi fish and you overfeed 6 times a day you will need to change a lot more water than someone with 4 adults in a 75g tank who feeds lightly once a day. BB or gravel, Plants or no plants, Clean your filter evrey wc or once a month? Don T.