What is the nitrate tolerance for discus?

[Hans Kloss]

That article was written by a real lab...

"Furthermore, a maximum level of 2 mg NO3-N/l would be appropriate for protecting the most sensitive freshwater species"

Thus, for MOST SENSITIVE freshwater species 2 mg/l of nitrate nitrogen will be safe. It is an equivalent of 9 ppm of nitrate ion NO3-.
I fully agree with this conclusion. Together with discus I'm playing with small freshwater shrimps, one of them is beautiful Caridina sp. "crystal red". They cannot spawn if nitrates are above 10 ppm, so I keep them in small tank with nitrates near 0 ppm. They are also very sensitive for other water parameters and because of it I'm forced for 50% WC monthly to keep them spawning .
But discus are definitely NOT crystal red's and even not invertebrates. They are fish and they are not very sensitive.
Sometimes, after reading some posts about their "medication" I believe in discus to be bulletproof.
Hans

"All things are poison and nothing is without poison, only the dose permits something not to be poisonous."
Paracelsus

[Polar_Bear]

Seecher,
and this is what I find interesting...

6 people post, 3 are water changers...and you ignore their views... one (polar) mentions that he had juvies in 100PPM but doesn't say for how long.. and who also is a water change proponent and theres one that sees things your way.. and you can draw conclusions .

Al,
You are quite correct on both points. The juveniles were in that water only because at the time I had a faulty titration NO3 test kit that kept reading 0 NO3, when I purchased a new test kit I discovered my mistake. They were in water that high for far less than a week btw. You are also correct in that I am a huge proponent of water changes, most of my closer friends would tell you that I am obsessive about them. 100% daily water changes is not at all unusual in my case, especially with younger discus.
I also admit that saying "NO3 is not a toxin" was a mistake. My point is that I don't believe NO3 in and of itself is much of a concern, I feel that dissolved organic compounds (DOC) are a far more serious problem. However, NO3 is usually a good indicator for water quality, especially since measuring DOC is difficult to the point of being impossible for the typical hobbyist.

[brewmaster15]

Thanks Larry

-al

[Seecher]

seecher,



Open minded? Doesn't look that way here...

I've asked you this question before... what kind of filter are you using? I can't see how 4 adult in a 30 gal tank and your water changes, with no live plants can only be 20PPM... its not possible... Your Nitrates should be much higher.. You mentioned that you were saving for a Nitrate filter.. and you use plastic plants... What test kit do you use and how often are you monitoring these?

Your ammonia and Nitrites are constants making nitrate... How are you keeping those nitrates low and not doing water changes.

-al

TDS... 147 ppm
PH... 5.4
Temperature... 84.5°F
10 floating water sprite.
Zero nitrite ppm
Approximately 15 nitrate ppm (something under 20)
Filter...Eclipse 3 bio-wheel... standard carbon filter is replaced with peat moss and then Kent Mixed Bed Resin as needed

Aquarium is clean every other week (used to be once a week). Water that is siphoned is replace the balanced ro water. 2/4 gal.

Chemical used according to directions. Cycle, Kent liquid ro right, Kent Freshwater Discus Essential

Testing done with Nitrate/nitrite Quick Dip test strips by
Jungle, twice-weekly.

One medium AM feedings with Omega One color flakes. 4 small feedings California black worms/red worms in the summer.

Currently (last night) White Butterflies have spawned in this water.

Al, if you are calling me a liar I would consider that an invitation
to leave the forum and will do so immediately. The ridicule and
mocking is something I've never seen on the specialty forum like
this. My apologies to anyone who I may have upset.

[Seecher]

It would be nice if there was a "discus test kit". You could test your water and 5 or below would guarantee healthy discus, 5 to 10 your discus might get sick, and above 10 death is certain......But there isn't! I use nitrates as that test. I recognize that there are other harmfull things in the water but as far as I know there are no tests for these things. I have spent a lot of time reading WC threads. I started with what many would consider insufficient WC and gradualy upped my WC. My fish are healthy and growing so I must be close to correct.

I thing why many disagree so much is that conditions are different: If you have a crowded tank with juvi fish and you overfeed 6 times a day you will need to change a lot more water than someone with 4 adults in a 75g tank who feeds lightly once a day. BB or gravel, Plants or no plants, Clean your filter evrey wc or once a month? Don T.

Greetings Don,

I've "never" cleaned my bio-wheel, I have bulk Polly filter material:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...&N=2004+113808

I have cut these to fit my filter, I clean and replace twice weekly.

Don, I'm always respected your comments as being quite sensible.
What do you think about nitrate tolerance for discus? It appears,
that what we've been told about keeping nitrates at 5/10 was
overcautious. It appears their tolerance is significantly higher
than that. If a person starts with ro water as we do, it seems
water quality holds up quite nicely.

[Kindredspirit]

It appears,
that what we've been told about keeping nitrates at 5/10 was
overcautious. .

What is wrong with being over cautious?

[Seecher]

What is wrong with being over cautious?

There's nothing wrong with that. If that's how you want to treat
your discus... so be it, they are your fish. However, there is another
consideration and that's wasting huge amounts of water. But
everyone has to make those decisions for themselves.

What I object to is misinformation. We are lead to believe by some
people that discus have a very low tolerance for nitrate, under 10
ppm, which necessitates draconian water changes, this apparently
is not true. If folks want to be obsessive-compulsive about water
changes that certainly is their business, but don't pass on that
information to new folks as gospel. That's one persons opinion, for
what it's worth.

[Hans Kloss]

Sorry, I previously missed this one:

Suit yourself on the Nitrates.. and best of luck on the plenum tank of yours to remove these harmless nitrates.LOl

Brew, consider what does mean the word BALANCE. Nitrates are not harmless, they are also not harmful. They simply ARE and they SHOULD BE in planted freshwater tank. I remove them because they are ACCUMULATING and disturb BALANCE. In case they disappear I should ADD THEM and I did it several times, using ammonium nitrate. Yes brew, I've added pure toxin to my discus tank. Do you believe me?

I'll stick with my Biology thanks. Nitrate is a Toxin.

I see how my fast growing plants are poisoned by nitrates . Typical symptom of poisoning- rapid growth with green coloring.
Is there any hope for them, LOL??

you need not drink a toxin when you have gills.

Paracelsus shouldn't agree with you. Toxicity is not caused by having gills, it is definitely problem of DOSE (or concentration).
Btw so called scaleless fish are much more sensitive for poisoning with ANY toxin than those with scales. Both have gills. Consider this as biologist with no prejudice.
Hans

[Hans Kloss]

What I object to is misinformation.

Here is an address of our Polish Discus Federation forum:

http://www.pkmd.pl/index.php

I know you can't read suahili but try to login and feel free to ask me priv for any question. There are several guys with similar to Your understanding of discus keeping and fishkeeping at all.
You'll find here some tank projects (I'm not alone with my BALANCE obsession, LOL) and quite nice movies and photos collection of discus parasites together with harmless tank inhabitants. I wish you never need it .
Hans

[Greg Richardson]

So far there is no documentation that absolutely
proves that REGULAR water changes does anything but please
the fish keeper.

Correct. It does please the Fish Keeper.
If you know your fish you will realize it also pleases them.

Two tanks shown here.


Think these fish don't love wc's?


They could be at the other end of tank but where do they hang out?


Look at them play underneath the water coming in...........



After the wc ..................


I see this every night. Waste of water?
Nope.
If you saw these in person you'd be doing daily wc's.
Pictures don't even begin to tell the story.
Not bragging just fact.
Results = Belief.

Can one have discus and be happy with them doing one wc a week?
Two weeks?

Sure, depending on the set up etc.
They may not have problems. GREAT for them!

But most people on forums are trying to promote the hobby.
That means encouraging people to do wc's. No rules.
Common sense since year after year most of the people posting in the sick section are there because of their wc schedule.

What you continue to fail to see is I don't give a rip what my water parimeters are.
Never test them as I don't need to.
I do daily wc's sometimes skipping when I'm to tired but that is rare maybe 4 times a year and when I go on 3 to 4 day vacations.

It is amazing to me how you feel everyone is jumping on you when you continue to post in post after post how others are wasting their water and should be doing tests to see if they need to do a wc and if they aren't doing a test they are wasting water.

Obviously you have never seen the results wc's do.
Waste?
Not in my lifetime nor my fishes.

[brewmaster15]

Seecher,
Re-read all your posts and their tone..then ask yourself why people here have reacted as they did to you....

TDS... 147 ppm
PH... 5.4
Temperature... 84.5°F
10 floating water sprite.
Zero nitrite ppm
Approximately 15 nitrate ppm (something under 20)
Filter...Eclipse 3 bio-wheel... standard carbon filter is replaced with peat moss and then Kent Mixed Bed Resin as needed

Aquarium is clean every other week (used to be once a week). Water that is siphoned is replace the balanced ro water. 2/4 gal.

Chemical used according to directions. Cycle, Kent liquid ro right, Kent Freshwater Discus Essential

Testing done with Nitrate/nitrite Quick Dip test strips by
Jungle, twice-weekly.

One medium AM feedings with Omega One color flakes. 4 small feedings California black worms/red worms in the summer.

Currently (last night) White Butterflies have spawned in this water.

Al, if you are calling me a liar I would consider that an invitation
to leave the forum and will do so immediately. The ridicule and
mocking is something I've never seen on the specialty forum like
this. My apologies to anyone who I may have upset.

I'm not calling you anything, but your nitrate readings should be higher...if you understand how they are formed, that should be obvious...Nitrates don't decrease in a tank or stay at a level , they increase over time unless you remove water, have plants, or a special filtration.

BTW>...

10 floating water sprite.

you just added that plant after my suggestion in another thread...That was not part of your original system which used no plants.




Han,
I'm sorry , you can say what you like but I understand the biology behind how Nitrates work... and they are a toxic chemical to vertebrates and invertebrates..

yes they may be tolerated by some animals for different amounts of times and at different concentrations. But biologically they have very real toxic effects depending on the organism.

That paper I referenced was a very recent one...2 years old... and in it they made note of how even at low concentrations , there is a biological effect and its cummulative ...the longer the exposure the more the damage.This information is new...after years of every one saying that nitrates were the least aspect of the biofilter to worry about it... science is seeing that yes... what we knew about nitrates all along does infact apply to fish.

Toxicity is not caused by having gills, it is definitely problem of DOSE (or concentration).

Hans, The gills transport toxins into the fish rapidly, much as if you were breathing in aroom full of toxic gas.. The dose and concentration do matter... but so does the duration of exposure....and thats basic biology.

I see how my fast growing plants are poisoned by nitrates . Typical symptom of poisoning- rapid growth with green coloring.
Is there any hope for them, LOL??

A chemical can be toxic to a vertebrate or invertebrate and have no effect on plants.


Lets take a look something here hans...

"Furthermore, a maximum level of 2 mg NO3-N/l would be appropriate for protecting the most sensitive freshwater species"

Thus, for MOST SENSITIVE freshwater species 2 mg/l of nitrate nitrogen will be safe. It is an equivalent of 9 ppm of nitrate ion NO3-.
I fully agree with this conclusion...........
But discus are definitely NOT crystal red's and even not invertebrates. They are fish and they are not very sensitive.

Hans

Interesting isn't it???...we went from Nitrates not being toxic to now they are a problem for some sensitive species? Now the only difference is You don't think that Discus are one of them? I disagree there as a matter of opinion.....thats fine though. At least we made some headway on their being a problem with nitrates for some species of fish...

Unless you or I have kept discus in everywater parameter imaginable ..i don't think either of us can do more than speculate and guess just how sensitive they are....IMO they don't like nitrates and get skittish over 20ppm..I shoot for 10PPM or less ...thru water changes and terrestrial plant roots.

So please do explain to me what then is there about Nitrate that causes a particular fish to be "sensitive"? And how do these "sensitive" species react?

-al

Heres a "small" review of Nitrates as they are a chemical of concern used in the food industry as a "preservative"..

http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecf...no/v35je14.htm

unfortunately theres no fish data there...but many other species and some good data on just how bio-reactive Nitrate is as a chemical.

[Kindredspirit]

There's nothing wrong with that. If that's how you want to treat
your discus

It is. There is a difference from being paranoid, then being over cautious IMO ~

consideration and that's wasting huge amounts of water.

It is my water and I pay for it ~ I can not believe you actually tossed this statment in there....

What I object to is misinformation. We are lead to believe by some
people that discus have a very low tolerance for nitrate, under 10
ppm, which necessitates draconian water changes, this apparently
is not true. If folks want to be obsessive-compulsive about water
changes that certainly is their business, but don't pass on that
information to new folks as gospel. That's one persons opinion, for
what it's worth.

I don't think anyone here is misinformed ~ or folks would be coming back to ***** and this forum would not be as great and big as it is ~ wc are based on experience and how they worked for us and why we do them ~ the experts here can back up what they believe and say with any fact you need ~


Okay... You know...you come here with this chip on your shoulder and you are so defensive ~surely you must see that? You make us feel like fools in believing what we do and idiots for not seeing your side of things! And you wonder why people respond to you the way they do?


And that is a shame as you seem to have a lot to offer with great discussions!

[Don Trinko]

Seecher; I am definatly not an expert. I am repeating what I have learned here and some personal experience so here are a few of my opinions:
1. I don't know what the "healthy" nitrate level is for discus. I try to keep mine 5 to 7. If it gets to close to 10 I change more water or more often. One dealer told me to keep it below 20 for adult discus. I am using the nitrate as an indicater only because I have no other indicaters other that watching the fish.
I'm sure that when I do a WC I am lowering the level of "other toxins" also. I don't know what these other toxins are but I'm sure they are their.
2. Massive WC will not do the fish any harm as long as the WC water is similar to the water in the tank and the same temp.
3. I prefer not to do WC over 40% just in case something is wrong with the water. I do test PH and Temp of storage water before each WC.
4. as I mentioned before I think there is a large diffenence in WC routines because there is a large difference in the conditions in the discus tank. (juvi/adult, BB/planted, bioload, 1feeding/6 feedings etc.)
There are a lot of people here who know a lot more abought discus than I. I respect their opinions. I do not always do exactly what they suggest but it influences my decision. If I were on my own with out this website and the knowlede of my favorite dealer (Cary) I would probably have given up and raiser guppies instead.
Don T.

[Hans Kloss]

I'm sorry , you can say what you like but I understand the biology behind how Nitrates work... and they are a toxin to vertebrates and invertebrates..

Brew, you are arguing to pharmaceutical chemist. I know about toxicity of nitrates and some other things about physiology, biochemistry and toxicology. You cannot fool me as easy as you try.

Hans, The gills transport toxins into the fish rapidly, much as if you were breathing in aroom full of toxic gas

Brew, nitrate is an ION. Ions can usually pass the gills only with difficulties or even cannot do it at all. Try to find some data about acute toxicity of Al ion to fish, for brown trout it is for example below 0.2 mg/l at typical for discus pH 5.4. Al can be even more toxic than Zn or Cr ions. Then try to find data about Al concentration in so called "black waters" which are most known dwelling of discus fish - it can reach 240 mg/l!!. It is enormous, discus are swimming in water filled by toxin!. But they still can live and reproduce.
What does it mean?
- comparison of toxicity between two species may be pointless, even if they are close related
- toxin measurement outside of fish body may be pointless, because its unknown absorbency.
- discus fish is probably much better protected than other fish from absorption of ions from outside into their body.
And last but not least- we in Europe also can keep and raise discus. I can show you pictures of discus farm from where are some of my fish. Its owner raise biggest leopards I ever seen, not measuring water parameters and doing WC based on fish behavior and his feelings. I measured his water at home- 45 ppm!!
Hans

[brewmaster15]

Brew, you are arguing to pharmaceutical chemist. I know about toxicity of nitrates and some other things about physiology, biochemistry and toxicology. You cannot fool me as easy as you try.
Quote:
Hans, The gills transport toxins into the fish rapidly, much as if you were breathing in aroom full of toxic gas
Brew, nitrate is an ION. Ions can usually pass the gills only with difficulties or even cannot do it at all. Try to find some data about acute toxicity of Al ion to fish, for brown trout it is for example below 0.2 mg/l at typical for discus pH 5.4. Al can be even more toxic than Zn or Cr ions. Then try to find data about Al concentration in so called "black waters" which are most known dwelling of discus fish - it can reach 240 mg/l!!. It is enormous, discus are swimming in water filled by toxin!. But they still can live and reproduce.
What does it mean?
- comparison of toxicity between two species may be pointless, even if they are close related
- toxin measurement outside of fish body may be pointless, because its unknown absorbency.
- discus fish is probably much better protected than other fish from absorption of ions from outside into their body.
And last but not least- we in Europe also can keep and raise discus. I can show you pictures of discus farm from where are some of my fish. Its owner raise biggest leopards I ever seen, not measuring water parameters and doing WC based on fish behavior and his feelings. I measured his water at home- 45 ppm!!
Hansg

Hans,

Brew, you are arguing to pharmaceutical chemist. I know about toxicity of nitrates and some other things about physiology, biochemistry and toxicology. You cannot fool me as easy as you try.

I'm not trying to fool you , I have no reason to...If you know of these things great for you..Your interpretation and mine of science are obviously very different. So we'll have to agree to disagree ...as I said thats fine..I have nothing to prove here... My fish are all quite content and happy as am I with what we do here.

And last but not least- we in Europe also can keep and raise discus. I can show you pictures of discus farm from where are some of my fish. Its owner raise biggest leopards I ever seen, not measuring water parameters and doing WC based on fish behavior and his feelings. I measured his water at home- 45 ppm!!

I have never said europeans can't raise discus.. Why suggest I did? Because I disagree with you?

This is getting no where Hans, and you are making it personal now... I have better things to do.

I'll keep my water changes and keep my Nitrates down...Less is best for Nitrates in MY BOOK and experience...... If others chose not to thats fine..

best of luck to you and your "Balenced Aquariums"

-al