My Heckles

[plecocicho]

Your discus are so cute!!! I could fal in love with them instinatelly!. Have they grown since you took the photo ?
lp

[blue acara]

Your discus are so cute!!! I could fal in love with them instinatelly!. Have they grown since you took the photo ?
lp

Yeah! I love them lots. I see them every day so I don't notice the growth-hopefully they have.

As I am off work for the holidays I am doing 50% water change daily and am feeding 5-6 times a day. They eat anything I put in the tank- they even munch on pleco wafers. I want to make them a beef heart mix or maby a turkey heart mix, what do you guys thing about feeding wilds beefheart-good or not?

Here are a few photos:


In this photo you can see the different patterns on the fish at the moment. 2 have very strong 9 bars, 2 are more brown, and 3 have stronger blue lines on their flanks.


No flash here, still the small 11 watt light.

[plecocicho]

Avoid beefheath at any cost! Heckel discus feed on plant matters most than other discus species (blue and green). Hearth acts like the steroids- It promotes fast growth, but it destroys organs when they are old and die prematurelly. Discus are not carnivores (e.g. do not eat vertebrate meat (fish, mammals, lizards, birds). You say tthat they enyoy pleco wafers. I would recommend you to use dry ffod on the plant basis as a main food. Yor beatuies are growing just fine.
lp

[blue acara]

Yes I have read that beef heart damages Discus. So many people use it though with great success. Is there any scientific evidence or studies that show it damages them?

I guess I can make a food using fresh earthworm as the main ingredient.

[Apistomaster]

I recommend only feeding beef heart blends as occasional treats rather than as their primary diet. Although I do not agree with the assertion that beef heart blends are harmful but I do agree it is not well suited for Heckels except as I've described.
I stand by my recommendations to feed Heckels earthworm sticks, frozen blood worms, live black worms, Spirulina sticks and Tetra Color Bits.
I plan to reformulate a few trial test beefheart blends containing blue berries, cranberries, CyclopEeze, Spirulina, earthworm flakes, FD Bloodworms and Vitamin supplements. The beef heart content will be reduced to about 50% by volume. Heiko Bleher suggested I try that and perhaps add banana.
I only feed my Heckels one or two feedings of the beef heart blend per week.

[pcsb23]

I very, very rarely feed my wilds on beefheart. White worms, red wrigglers, fbw, various forms of shrimp, flake and granule food, plus plant matter. One day I will try berries....

[yogi]

I don't feed beef heart to my discus, but I don't think there is any evidence of it causing damage to them. I don't use it because if it is not all eaten it will decay faster than any other food you feed and lower the water quality.

I also don't agree with feeding a lot of plant matter to heckels or any other discus. In the wild discus have to feed on whats available and if it's only plants then that is what they will eat. If caught and dissected that is what is found in their stomach. That does not mean it's there first choice in food nor does it mean they are getting the needed nourishment from plants. Discus are a short intestine animal. Short intestines are for meat not for plants. On the other hand gorilas are a long intetine animal and eat lots of plants.

[Genirous]

Hi fellow-hobbyists,
about 10 days ago, we had the honour and privilige learning from worlds famous fish collector and discoverer Heiko Bleher itself!!!
He came to Athens, Greece for a two-day seminar and he talked about many things...


As for heckel nutrition, he said NO dried foods, NO beefhart, but fruits (like banana and blueberry) and live foods (like daphnia or raised artemia)...
He also said never feed wilds what bred discus are fed and never keep wilds with breds in the same tank...

[blue acara]

Hi fellow-hobbyists,
about 10 days ago, we had the honour and privilige learning from worlds famous fish collector and discoverer Heiko Bleher itself!!!
He came to Athens, Greece for a two-day seminar and he talked about many things...


As for heckel nutrition, he said NO dried foods, NO beefhart, but fruits (like banana and blueberry) and live foods (like daphnia or raised artemia)...
He also said never feed wilds what bred discus are fed and never keep wilds with breds in the same tank...

Thank you for posting this. Unfortunately constantly feeding live food will become expensive with enriched artemia costing 70p per feed and 50p for bags of daphnia and bloodworm.
Chopped earthworm will go a way to replacing these, I am going to make a earthworm hatchery.
Ill give them some banana tomorrow- We will see if they eat this or not
I think some dry foods will still have to be on the menu.

[Mick B]

Hi All,

Forgive me, but are we actually suggesting, that 'Tank bread/hybrid' Discus have evolved so much, since being lifted from the Amazon, that there basic digestion system is different????

Bleher's book (Vol 1) shows the high percentage of detritus and plant matter consumed, with very low land-based protines, but is this choice or nessesity?

Equally, there is a good artical (DPH Discus Page Holland) which delves into this and apparently, it's only plant protines which are absorbed (based on emsimes in gut etc).

There is also referance to the fungus contained in the detritus (fungus feeds on it and breaks down the plant matter), which could be the primary protine the Discus get from apparently eating detritus.

I can see and understand, that a wild fish, may not 'take' to flake or BH, but much the same as a European, would struggle with bar-b-qued Cat

Not that we can't eat it, or get benifit from it, but chomping on fluffy, is not acceptable.

Cheers, Mick B

Mo

[Apistomaster]

Bleher found no fungus but a lot of freshwater sponges in gut analysis. Furthermore, sponges are typically infested with other "bugs". The detritus contains a myriad of small organisms including algae.
In general, the evidence is that discus are benthic grazers and opportunistic feeders on terrestrial fruits and blossoms on a seasonal basis.

I do think that after hundreds of generations of captive breeding that domestics have become different from wilds and are better adapted to the foods that they have been raised on these past five decades or so.

I incorporate a good deal of FD Blood worms into my discus blends and aside from their nutritional value, the blood worms greatly enhance the cohesiveness of my blend. I add them after blending the heart and fold them in by hand so they retain their shape. It does not fall apart into the small particles very much and allows me to use a relatively small amount of the agar binder. I also do everything I can to minimize the water content which also helps it remain cohesive. Beef heart makes up 50 to 60% of my blend by volume.

[Mick B]

Bleher found no fungus but a lot of freshwater sponges in gut analysis. Furthermore, sponges are typically infested with other "bugs". The detritus contains a myriad of small organisms including algae.
In general, the evidence is that discus are benthic grazers and opportunistic feeders on terrestrial fruits and blossoms on a seasonal basis.

I do think that after hundreds of generations of captive breeding that domestics have become different from wilds and are better adapted to the foods that they have been raised on these past five decades or so.

I incorporate a good deal of FD Blood worms into my discus blends and aside from their nutritional value, the blood worms greatly enhance the cohesiveness of my blend. I add them after blending the heart and fold them in by hand so they retain their shape. It does not fall apart into the small particles very much and allows me to use a relatively small amount of the agar binder. I also do everything I can to minimize the water content which also helps it remain cohesive. Beef heart makes up 50 to 60% of my blend by volume.

Hi Larry,

I'm concerned over this word 'adapted', of course you get used to what mom, dad and othere eat, I've often found, a fish supposedly 'not taking to something' once hungry for 2 or 3 days, watching other tank mates munching away, will try alternatives (survival, after all!).

But, on one hand, we are told, Discus gut is not long enough to be just a Veggie, and Discus cannot digest plant matter, only protines derived from that matter, by fungal, enzimes and other critters etc, then, I read Bheler and see very high veggie and detritus intakes?

And being fair, when feeding Discus 100% BH (during medicated food treatment), I'm looking for solid black poos, as a sign of healthy fish?

Now, when us humans, go on the atkins diet, we get constpation and solid black poos!
Equally, my Darling wife, is 100% Veggie, has been for years,

So, (totally un scientifically) Discus are actually "Omnivores" and very oppertunistic.

So modifying your feeding 'make-up' to suit what they like, seems
to make sence

Cheers, Mick B

[Apistomaster]

I do believe that domestic discus have "adapted" to a different diet through the selective pressures of captive life. it is inevitable.
This is true of almost all tank raised fish that have been in the hobby for decades. Those that do well are preferentially bred. This is not really something we have consciously done. We breed the survivors that do best. Over 50 years is easily long enough to make a difference between domestics and wilds. We have hundreds of color strains much different than wild type discus and I would submit the differences are now far more than skin deep. I think domestic Discus would find it difficult to adapt to the wild if they were to be introduced back to their waters of origin. Domestics breed in a much wider range of water chemistries than their wild counterparts but their brooding instincts are not a sharp as those of pure wilds..

Domestic discus are far more well suited to life in captivity than wilds. I would think this is self evident. Just as there is a difference between wild guppies and fancy or long finned Betta splendens and short finned wilds. There are many examples. Perhaps one of the best examples that is closer to discus is the difference between domestic angels and wild angels. It is much more difficult to breed wild angels than domestic angels. Breeding Heckels and Altum Angels is all but impossible. They still represent the pioneering edge of breeding. Documented spawns of these two species are clouded with doubts. Bleher still claims that only a small handful of well documented breeding accounts of purebred Heckels in captivity exist and I have seen no reasons to doubt him.
The purity of aquarium bred Altums is plagued with doubts as to whether they are purebreds. These fish are often referred to as "Rio Rhine Altums" and they are not considered true Altums by the vast majority of specialists. They often show the pearl scale trait; unheard of amongst wild caught Altums.
Of the examples of Heckel spawns described on simplydiscus, no one, to my knowledge, has gone on the show the progeny of these spawns as young adults. Just the spawning reports but no results after that except, "I sold them." Not a particularly confidence building way to show evidence that they were truly successful. I believe I want to see a pure bred aquarium strain of Heckels established as much as anyone but I believe we would be Heckel breeders have our work cut out for us.

[Genirous]

Hi guys,

the issue about water parametres and nutrition goes far away... I'm very confused with all this...

Heckel discus is the only discus living in such acid waters and managed to survive and actually thrive in them...
It happens worldwide, not only sick and unhappy heckels, but merely survive in our tanks... Only few capable people manage them... (Unquestionable issue to breed them succesfully...) I'm still not one of them...
So... Do we give them the right water parametres...? Do we give them the right nutrition...?

All live organisms become opportunistic so that they manage to survive, but it is not a choice they make, they are forced to do so... Heckels when pass from dry-season to rainy-season, I believe they prove that they are not opportunistic feeders, because in spite of beeing able to eat a lot more worms, ants, termites etc traped in the water, they prefer fresh plant matter reducing the quantity of decayed one...

Friendly,
Giorgos

[Apistomaster]

Hi Giorgos,
The Heckels are opportunistic feeders. They have to be to adapt to the changing food supplies available at different seasons.
That doesn't mean they eat anything available. They eat what they have evolved to eat that is available to them but still must fit with what they have evolved to eat.
In fact, I believe simulating their natural foods and the seasonal changes that occur within their habitat is the key to ultimately breeding them.
That said, I also think that as far as maintaining them in healthy conditions with the foods we have discussed using will result in thriving Heckels. They are not that difficult to keep healthy in captivity once they are acclimated to aquarium life.

How to simulate their flooded jungle spawning habitat is something I believe to be a difficult goal.
I believe that in an aquarium, we tend to keep them in what I consider their low water habitat which is largely why breeding them is so rare. At least that is my hypothesis. I don't find Heckels particularly difficult to keep healthy year after year. it is only the first month or two in our tanks when newly imported Heckels are recovering from all the capture and transit induced stresses are they very delicate.

Actually the Green Discus shares a very similar environment within it's range. That range is limited to water that is also devoid of dissolved inorganic solids but a lot of organics. Both are Black water species. Green discus waters are only slightly higher in pH but still usually 5.0 or less.