Open letter to Heiko Bleher

[Apistomaster]

Dear Heiko,
I am one who agrees with you that captive breeding of wild Heckels is an extremely rare event. I know how much you stress the need to provide more and greater vegetable matter and extremely low conductivity and pH for their care. You have addressed these maintenance requirements in depth but I have not seen much advice regarding how we can better simulate and stimulate Heckels to breed in captivity.
It is my hypothesis that the way we maintain Heckels in captivity actually most accurately simulates the conditions Heckels experience outside of their breeding conditions. I believe we are actually simulating their dry season conditions rather than the wet season when the surrounding forests are flooded. Short of using enormous aquariums that would allow for simulating flooding I have run out of ideas.
What advice can you give that might be helpful in our efforts to breed Heckels?

It is relatively common for male Heckels to breed outside their species but to bring their females into spawning condition seems to be the crux of the problem. Try as I might, I have not been able to divine how this might be possible from what you have written in your book, Bleher's Discus Volume I. Anything more you would be willing to share that might forward the Heckel Project would be gratefully appreciated.

[Göran Ekholm]

This is the best of questiuons!

[Heiko Bleher]

Dear Larry and dear Göran,

first of all also to you in America and in Scandinavia a healthy and happy new year.

Now, you both see I am sitting over volume 2 and that is about breeding and everything else what is not in volume 1 written. It will be a lot, as much as in volume 1 (or more). (And I hope to finalize once and for all times the discus scene with that and move on to other books. As with the nature of wilds, were hardly more can be written, the same I am doing with beedring and tank breed variants in volume 2.)

Now just to answer in short your question: besides the fact that the (chemical) water parameters must be right (at least pH 4.5, better lower; conductivity should be below 20 µS/cm, better even under 10; temperature about 29 C for breeding, not more), and the correct food must be given to them over a period of time. (Do not give the same foods all the time and hopefully no granulates, but a variation of foods, like live foods and vegetable/plant materials, etc - see also the values I wrote of many fruits. You can find the same or simlar nautrition-values in local available fruits, just check it.)

In regards to the simulation of dry season and flooded season: you can naturally lower and rise you tank water, but that will be very difficult, unless you had a very deep aquarium (6 m or higher?), but you can simulate it by (what I actually did several times) adding some broken benches from a local tree full of leafs and place it from the top into your aquarium for a while. That does part of the flooded-forest effect. And than raise the temperaure 1-1.5 degrees Celcius.

But remember: before you start doing this simulation, your Heckel discus must be acclimatized for a long period of time (Schmidt-Fockje always said "at least 1.5 years) and you should have at least a group of 6 (better more) for such a period together. And the problem some have with them freaking out (because what I mentioned in my previous text) must be avoided. The fish must be settled and in perfect conditions. Than you have a chance. Specially if the simulation than is made in the month' Januar-Febraury-March during their time when they spawn in nature.

I hope this will help, and I am almost sure, if one follows my advice correctly, he will be successful,

always

Heiko Bleher

[Göran Ekholm]

A big tank you fore taking the time.

Best Regards Göran

[Apistomaster]

Hi Heiko,
Thank you for taking time to respond.
What you suggest is about all I could think would be a practical approach. I have ten Heckels at least 2-1/2 years old which is the earliest I would expect them to breed.

I think taking your advice is all well and good, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it will result in any sudden flurry of successful breeding accounts. I figure the challenge is still a daunting one.

I started parallel discussion regarding Heckel and Altum breeding and simulating the flooded forest conditions on www.finarama.com, since I suspect that despite their different ranges and that they do not naturally occur together, both species are notoriously difficult to spawn. Heckels are easy to keep but Altums are difficult to just acclimate and keep alive.(Which is largely an artifact of collecting from stagnant pools, and all holding and transportation imposed on already weak fish.)

I figure, that at most, one documented spawn occurs once or twice per generation of hobbyists for both species.

It came up elsewhere but I only recommend an elevated temp of 32*C for seven to ten days during acclimation and deworming if the fish are not looking well. My usual maintenance temperature for Heckels is 28*C.

[Heiko Bleher]

Hai Larry,

just a short note:

Ref. P. altums and Heckel discus you say that both species are notoriously difficult to spawn is in my experience not quite true. Heckel discus, in very few occasions, have been spawned, but the ral P. altum never (until today, to what I have seen and researched worldwide). And the P. altums you refere to, which are difficult to just acclimate and keep alive are ONLY those (populations) coming from Colombian exporters. That is, because what you say correctly, an artifact (bad) of collecting, holding and transportation imposed on already weak fish. Those I collected and also seen been exported from Venezuela never had such problems.

If you have a documented spawn of the real P. altum, let me know, so far as said, I have never seen one.

All the best

Heiko

[moltrup32]

Hello everyone. Heiko I think this is what you are looking for

http://www.finarama.com/tba/chronicles/fornback.htm

[Apistomaster]

Hi Heiko,
Would you not consider that there is very little difference between never a captive spawning of true Altums per your definition(Orinoco type localities) and from what I have seen you write in print, only one to a handful of documented Heckel spawns have been accomplished to the best of your knowledge?

Over a period of 40 odd years that is not much success.

Heckels are really not that difficult to keep in excellent condition while the Altum experience has generally been more difficult. Considering the virtually identical genotype of Heckels and S. haraldi there sure is an extreme difference in ease of captive breeding of wild specimens of these two species of Symphysodon. S. haraldi is actually quite easy to breed. I do understand that there are major differences in their adaptations to their respective environments.

Off topic but I have just had my second successful spawn of Peckoltia sp. L134 leopard frog Plecos. New fry were just released from the cave yesterday. The little fancy plecos appeal to me because much like Discus, the parent(s) does the work leaving the aquarist easily raised fry. And, of course, L134 is a very pretty species. Please excuse my pride but unlike my 4 decades with discus I only began working with these and other small fancy plecos about 18 months ago so they are still new territory for me. Been raising Sturisoma aureum, too.

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi Larry,

Let me say this, what P. altum and heckel discus is concerned: naturally you are right if you say a handful and nothing in all those decades of people trying around the world, that is practically the same.
But I cannot agree with what you are saying that Heckels are easy to keep but Altums are difficult to just acclimate and keep alive. First of all none come from stagnant pools. Only what i said vbnefore: almost all Altumns now come in the last 2-3 years ONLY from Colombia and those are VERY difficult to acclimatize (if you do not loose them most of the time as they arrive with almost every parasite in the book). Those are already very weak fish.
On the other side I collected and imported Altums from the upper Orinoco for decades (between 1971 and 1995) and those I had almost never had any problem with. Schmidt-Focke who had eggs (but they did not hatched), from those Altums I collected, (I think it was 7 pieces) for more than 20 years. Eggs yes, free swimming no. Fantastic large fishes they were, good 40 cm span. But never difficult to keep. It is a different population and also never have had the stress (and contact with infections) as the ones coming from Inirida (Colombia).

What Heckel discus (S. discus) vs. Blue or Brown (S. haraldi) is concerned, that is were genetic research and results (DNA) is still not perfect (that is also why I was involved in the writings of that 48-page-revision). Genetically those two species are very close, but in nature and what their reproduction (parameters, foods, etc.) is concerned, they are VERY far apart. And mind you, I know many people who have problems with Heckel discus (specially what the food ios concerned), but very rarely with Blue or Brown discus.

I just wanted to ad this. The secret is somewhe in a combination of factores like water parameters (first of all), temperatures, microsiemens (also extreme important), foods (almost as much), water density (probably, what Altum is concerned, Schmidt-Focke and I played with it and sometimes worked), light-factors (I just found a new neon that lives almost only in darkness - all its live... Altum and Heckel discus hardly ever live in bright light regions, almost never seen) and having the right pairs.

Just a few comments before I sleep (almost midnight here and hard day tomorrow, we are doing the Russian version of Aqua geõgraphia now, and monthly - have a look under Latest News).

Best regards\\Heiko

[Apistomaster]

Hi Heiko,
I guess I would have been more accurate by saying Altums, in the condition they usually arrive in the USA, are in very much worse condition than S. discus. So, right away, the Altums start out greatly disadvantaged. I know that Altums do not prefer stagnant pools but I believe collectors other than you, find these isolated Altums much easier to capture than those in their preferred environment. Much of the difficulties we have with Altums are artifacts of man made decisions and poorer care. I believe that the collectors of Discus tend to be more cognizant of the proper ways to care for their catches than the Altum collectors and exporters. I am sure the Altums you caught received much more adequate care and were captured from ideal habitats.
Heckels are intrinsically more demanding than S. aequifasciata and S. haraldi but since they tend to come in better condition, we have less problems with them than the Colombian caught Altums. Altums spend time prior to import in facilities in Bogata and are probably not kept as warm as they should be. Bogata is at a high elevation where climatically, it is closer to a temperate zone than the holding facilities in Manaus where it is tropical. Many species are able to endure this far better than Altums. 100% losses of Colombian Altums is an all to often a reality in the USA. Heckel losses are much lower. The majority of Heckels die slowly in the care of their final keepers than during transit from Brazil. This is a matter of better education of would be keepers of Heckels. All three wild species of Discus are not created equal but many believe all discus are the same.

Since much of what discus keepers believe is based on only what they have heard or read on forums, they often are not made aware of the ways in which S. discus are from a distinctly different environment than their cogeners. The degree of lighting is a good example of something most keepers of wild discus are not fully aware let alone dietary differences between Heckels and the other discus species. And then there is the matter of the extreme differences between the water chemistry to which Heckels are uniquely adapted and those of the other species of discus. The list goes on as you, of all people, well know.
I doubt that when fully analyzed, there are few differences of opinion and facts, between us.

When I said Heckels are not difficult to keep, I meant specifically, Heckels are not difficult for me to keep. I know not everyone find Heckels all that easy but then again, they did not start out their discus experiences by first keeping and breeding wild discus in 1969, several years before I ever bred a captive raised domestic discus.

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi, Larry,

you are very right in what you are saying, all the way through. I only wanted to add: Colombian Altums arrive dead all over the world. I seen it in Russia, Malaysia, throughout Europe, in Japan and elsewhere. And this during the last 30plus years. Nothing has changed and people do not seem to want to understand...

All the best,

Heiko

[JeffreyRichard]

Hi Larry,


But I cannot agree with what you are saying that Heckels are easy to keep but Altums are difficult to just acclimate and keep alive. First of all none come from stagnant pools. Only what i said vbnefore: almost all Altumns now come in the last 2-3 years ONLY from Colombia and those are VERY difficult to acclimatize (if you do not loose them most of the time as they arrive with almost every parasite in the book). Those are already very weak fish.
On the other side I collected and imported Altums from the upper Orinoco for decades (between 1971 and 1995) and those I had almost never had any problem with. Schmidt-Focke who had eggs (but they did not hatched), from those Altums I collected, (I think it was 7 pieces) for more than 20 years. Eggs yes, free swimming no. Fantastic large fishes they were, good 40 cm span. But never difficult to keep. It is a different population and also never have had the stress (and contact with infections) as the ones coming from Inirida (Colombia).



Best regards\\Heiko

Can we expect any exported Venezualian Altums in the near future?

[Apistomaster]

Hi Jeffery,
It has become very difficult to import fish from Venezuela directly into the USA, especially with the rise of Caesar Chavez to power. He is so anti-American and the fishing season is very truncated by Venezuelan regulations.
Most fish are having to come from Colombians and along their borders and sections of the Orinoco and tributaries. That whole area is a war zone between two different governments and the FARC insurgents and their use of narcotrafficking to finance their operations so it is a dangerous place. Add to that the US sponsored spraying of herbicides on a wholesale level to eliminate Coca agriculture and that toxic run off is having a serious impact on the ecosystems. Plus all the adverse effects of deforestation only adds insult to injury.
The current problems are unlikely to improve anytime soon for US fish keepers interested in Venezuelan tropical fish.
It could be so very different if Venezuelan fish exporters could make direct connections with the US market.
Altums from the Puerto Ayacuchu area are far from all these complications and would be much stronger and healthier fish.

[Göran Ekholm]

Sven Fornbäck has spawn P. Altum he got it on film and a lot of fotos, it is published in many places. Like: DISCUS Jahrbuch 1994, Discus breif same year.