Heckels one year old

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi, Moon

the picture is not that great, and they could be P. altum from Puerto Inirida.
Please have a look to Hustinx's website below, the upper photos (those on 2-3 from left to right) are definately true P. altums. if yours are they same, you have it.

But than PLEASE not to place with wild discus, they do not know them. Look under:
http://www.hustinx-aquaristiek.com/m...c=IMG_3603.JPG

All the best

Heiko

PS: In any event they are stunning fishes.

[Apistomaster]

Quite a few Altum-like Angels are collected in the upper Rio Negro and are almost indistinguishable from the Orinoco or "true" altums. I know Heiko's definition of what constitutes a true P. altum is restricted to those from Venezuela. There is also a possibility that even within the Orinoco drainage that P. altum may have undergone some divergent evolution which may, in time, result in the distinguishing between valid subspecies. There is work being done to determine if P. altum and their look-a-likes are one and the same using mitochondrial DNA studies but these studies are still on-going and no results have been published.
Your's look like the real deal to me.
Although many have kept P. altum with discus it really is best if they are kept apart. Each has some special conditions they do best in and P. altum are able to intimidate Heckels. They never occur together in nature.
Altums often frequent areas with more water currents than Heckels ever frequent. The P. altum are much better adapted to dealing with stronger currents than discus. That is just my opinion. As long as the two manage to live together without conflict then there really isn't a problem. Not many of us maintain truly accurate set ups that completely imitate the natural conditions. It is a fish keepers perogative to try different things.

[Genirous]

Hi Larry, hi guys,

the only connection between Orinoco and Negro is through the Cassiquare Canal... But I believe that fishes like P.Altum and S.Discus are unable to swim through the canal and change river...
Real Pterophyllum Altum are very expensive fishes and any hobbyist will buy them knowing for sure what he gets with so much money... Also, I think it's a big deal for any LFS to have real P.Altum for sale...

Friendly,

Giorgos

[Apistomaster]

Hi Giorgos,
Hope all is going well with you and your Heckel Discus.
Just getting some healthy true P. altum with a fighting chance of making it through the first six weeks is a big deal anymore.
The massive spraying of the Coca fields in Eastern Colombia is having devastating effects on the aquatic systems in that region. Combine that and improper care provided by most collectors and exporters is a triple whammy on the P. altums.

I do know of at least one major Colombian exporter that is willing to try some new packing methods which may help. Packing fewer Altums per box, individually bagging them in Novalek breathable bags with a perforated styro "cup" enclosed in one breather bag and a second breather bag around the outside with ~1/2 inch air space. All in an effort to reduce shipping damage, punctures and preventing anoxia. I know of successful shipments within the US where this method has worked well but it has yet to be tried on a commercial scale.

I am shipping out six 4-inch Red Turquoise using this method within a week or so to see how well it works with discus.

[Heiko Bleher]

hi,

I am just back from the Interzoo 2008, were I had also an exhibit on blues from the lake Cuipeuá, Alenquer region (with one red discus from the lake) and everyone was astonished to see my 500 gallon tank with 50 adult discus, 10 adult angelfishes (Pt. scalares), 3 Geopgagus, 10 Mesonauta and some large Loricarichthys (5). Everyone felt as in nature, in the lake (soon pictures on my website, now only above water, soon underwater...). (But I had 8 more authentic biotopes decorated - total 10,000 liters.)

Angelfishes (scalare and leopoldi) live almost all the time with discus, NEVER Pt. altum (besides the Casiquiare, there are waterfalls in between... and neither will the latter go down, nor the discus up).

Larry, DNA will never be able to tell if it is a different species or not, only the age of it. That is something many still do not (or do not want to) realize. Morphologie with the help of molecular results acn do it, but never the latter alone (at least not at this time and with the existing knowledge). You know I am the managing director of aqua and have almost daily to do with it...

Another thing I wanted to tell you: PLEASE do not think that by packing less and more carefully there will be any change in arrival condition of real Pt. altum from Colombia. It will not. The problem starts in Puerto Inirida, in the local holding facilities of the fishermen and ends in the cold weather of 3000 m high Bogota. The Pt. altum CANNOT stand it, weakened from the infections and diseases caught in Pt. Inirida and will hardly EVER survive. It has not happened in the last 40 years (I know it from around the world), so I dought it will ever happen... You should spend your money somewhere else... and wait for Venezuela to open...

That all for to night, all the very best,

always

Heiko
www.aquapress-bleher.com
www.aqua-aquapress.com

[Apistomaster]

Your Angels do look like Altums to me but there is something about them that makes me think they are not the true altums from the Orinoco but rather the Alto Rio Negro P. scalare which resemble altums. The relative hight of their dorsal and anal fins is a little short for their body size. True Orinoco P. altum have a higher fin to body aspect ratio than the so-called Rio Negro Altums which are officially recognized as P. scalare. By definition, P. altum are solely from the tributaries of the Orinoco. (they don't actually live in the Orinoco proper.)

The fish derived from Linke's strain are widely considered to be actually Rio Negro "Altums" and they are typically large bodied but shorter finned fish as well.
Other than these differences between body size to fin hight, these angels have altum-like stripes, body shape and are generally larger than a "standard' wild P. scalare. They are also an easier fish to keep than true P. altum.

Real P. altum often grow to nearly 18 inches tall in an aquarium as measured from tip of dorsal to tip of anal fins. They get even taller in the wild. The Rio Negro "altums" never grow that tall.

[Apistomaster]

If I understand Heiko correctly about the DNA differences, am I correct in my understanding then the molecular genetic differences are all based on mitochondrial DNA and that what one can mostly tell from this mDNA is that the younger the fish is in evolutionary sense, the more mutations are found in the most recently evolved fish because the mutation rate is fairly constant over time and if the species is a more recently evolved it should have accumulated additional mDNA mutations than species closer to the ancestral form.

This helps place them in time but is not a good indicator for discriminating between the species.
The three species would/should all be considered equally modern. Is my understanding correct?

In the rain forest Killiefish of Central Africa, as the number of haploid chromosomes tends to increase , the more recently evolved the species are.

[Moon]

Your Angels do look like Altums to me but there is something about them that makes me think they are not the true altums from the Orinoco but rather the Alto Rio Negro P. scalare which resemble altums. The relative hight of their dorsal and anal fins is a little short for their body size. True Orinoco P. altum have a higher fin to body aspect ratio than the so-called Rio Negro Altums which are officially recognized as P. scalare. By definition, P. altum are solely from the tributaries of the Orinoco. (they don't actually live in the Orinoco proper.)

The fish derived from Linke's strain are widely considered to be actually Rio Negro "Altums" and they are typically large bodied but shorter finned fish as well.
Other than these differences between body size to fin hight, these angels have altum-like stripes, body shape and are generally larger than a "standard' wild P. scalare. They are also an easier fish to keep than true P. altum.

Real P. altum often grow to nearly 18 inches tall in an aquarium as measured from tip of dorsal to tip of anal fins. They get even taller in the wild. The Rio Negro "altums" never grow that tall.

Larry
I tend to agree with you. These came from a very reliable source and claimed to be Orinoco Altums. When I got them about two years ago they were quite small at quarter size. I did have some concerns about these being wild caught at such a small size.

[Apistomaster]

These altum-like Angels bred in captivity are often jokingly referred to as "Rio Rhine Altums."
That does not detract from the fact that they are beautiful angels and look enough like altums to satisfy and spare the keeper much of the health problems encountered when trying to keep P. altum.