"Peruvian" Greens

[Apistomaster]

My good friend R. Collins of the UK sent me photos and gave me permission to post them for the purpose of identifying them if possible as to their most likely area of capture. These are the same type of Green Discus I used to receive sometimes circa 1970 when I had a retail fish store. I kept many myself for several years and despite receiving excellent care this variety was characterized but never growing as large as other varieties of wild greens and the had the same understated colors. I have never seen this type of green any larger than 4.75 inches/12.5 cm. I say understated as compared to expensive red spotted Tefe" Greens and other regional types.
First photo is a green I usually get of average quality and of normal adult discus size.


Now I'll show three of 12 photos R. Collins sent me.




The most unusual thing about this race of Green Discus is it's relatively small maximum size the adults reach but there are differences in their color that also typifies these fish. Their smaller size makes them rather nice for maintaining a group in less than huge aquariums. Their behavior tends to be shy. Not nearly as bold as most wild Green Discus. In fact, they behave much like Heckels. I had not seen these type of Green Discus for many decades until my friend sent me photos of his new fish. He is a very accomplished aquarist and a breeder of rare catfish and is well known at www.planetcatfish.com These just happened to be his first discus. They are being kept at a pH of ~5.0, TDS of >50 ppm and 28.5*C/84*F.
Does anyone have any specific idea where this form of Green is collected other than just the Peruvian Amazon area?
It is easy to see how some could mistake them for a brown discus.

[Darren's Discus]

Larry,
very nice fish, I had a few peruvian greens along with tefe greens in the early 80's,still like them.thank's for posting the pics.


cheers

[Gordon C. Snelling]

Wow
really neat little fish, wouldn't mind having some myself.

[Discus-Hans]

Larry,

the Peruvian Discus come most from the rivers Nanay and Putuma.

Hans

[toomanyfish]

I just picked up a pair of these a couple of weeks back..ill post pics soon...its quite aggressive in my tank and is not shy one bit..also my fish are more "yellow"

[Apistomaster]

It is good to get the feed back from other "old timers". As I said, it has been a long time since I have seen this type. My original importations of them predates the introduction of Green Discus into the Rio Nanay. I was receiving them as early as 1968. Their behavior and maximum size is not nearly as bold or aggressive and as large as the more usual Green discus. They never develop long pelvic fins like most other Greens. The colors were never better than those of R. Collins fish. They never have striations that extend through their heads let alone into the body. They rarely had striations on the head worth noting.
My hunch is that they represent a localized population of Greens that has had some time in isolation from the larger ranging and more common forms of greens. They are not typical Tefe' Greens. Most Green Discus I have had grow to 5 inches or more in diameter and have not lacked aggression or boldness. Head striations are usually much more prominent. Notice the longer pelvic fins? It is also about 5-1/2 inches in diameter.

Hans,
Did you mean Rio Putamayo? Rather than Putuma? I am not familiar with the latter place name.

toomanyfish,
It would be interesting to see photos of your Greens for comparison. My experience with this type was always that they were very shy and lacking in aggression. R. Collins has made similar observations of the behavior of his fish. He was becoming concerned because despite their good care and appetites, they seemed to almost stop growing at 4-1/2 inches. Much smaller than other wild discus. Many of the other forms of greens can be quite boisterous and aggressive. These smallish greens behave in much the same way as Heckels and I was never able to breed this type. They were best kept with their own kind or they would be picked on too much and would go into a decline.
Until you can post photos of your fish, they sound to me to be more like this form of green that has a very yellow green body. The same fish I show above that is one of mine and not my friend's fish.


There is still a lot we don't know about wild discus. They are able to develop local forms quickly in geological/evolutionary terms when isolated. Their history in captivity demonstrates how much genetic plasticity discus possess. Witness the hundreds of domestic color types.

[toomanyfish]

its more like the 3rd pic you got there and does get stress bars once in a while but only during feeding and the first comple of minutes when lights are on...it is one of the smaller fish in my tank but quite agressive and a good feeder...ll try my best to get a pic soon

[Zulu]

Peruvian greens comes from Nanay river, as you know originally was not discus fish in there. Nanay discus are originally Tefe and Putumayo discus introductions result. Tefes are usually spotted but not Putumayos so you can find nanay from full spotted to no spotted, also you can find nearly cobalt discus. There is a big variability in Nanays but it´s true there are not to big in size, the nanays I keep are betwen 13 and 15cms size.

Those are some nanays I keep at my wilds tank;





Nearly cobalt green

[Apistomaster]

Zulu,
You have some grade AAA Green discus.
I don't see how the smaller form of less brilliant fish would be Rio Nanay fish due to the time lines. This particular green discus is the smallest of all the wild types I am familiar with.
They were not established in the Rio Nanay before 1968 to the best of my knowledge. The fish introduced to the Rio Nanay began as among the best specimens since the original intent was to raise high quality fish nearer to the center of distribution.
I was receiving two forms of greens back then. Those that there seems to be good consensus that were mainly from Lago Tefe' before they had been fished to their present day lowered populations. They were colored like your fish although not the same level of quality as your's which are clearly are some of the top 1%. They also grew as large as most discus and had long pelvic fins as adults.

Then there were those simply being called "Peruvian Greens" that were less colorful, smaller adult size and never grew very long pelvic fins no matter how old they were. They behaved very differently than the current Rio Nanay or further reaches of Lago Tefe' fish.One other difference I always noticed was the smaller "Peruvian Green" did not typically have very red eyes. Yellow to almost red -brown eye color was typical. There was also a definite difference in price when I was receiving them. They were about the same price as a common brown sold for in those days. The Tefe' Greens were always more in line with the prices brought by Brazilian Semi Royal Blues. A "Peruvian Green" sold wholesale in 1968-70 for ~$10 wholesale. A Tefe' Green not as nice as yours but better than average would run about $20 each wholesale.
Please understand that I do not mean to sound argumentative all I am hoping for is more iformation to be accumulated since there are some of us who do remember our experiences with these "Peruvian Greens" and were struck by the differences we experience with them compared to other greens.. I am trying to narrow down where such relatively plain and small Green Discus do come from because those I have experience with were much different as aquarium fish than the typical Greens most of the younger discus keepers have experienced. They do not seem like the majority of the green discus being sold world wide. To me, they do resemble some discus that are found naturally in the Rio Putumayo but that collecting area has historically been Colombian FARC guerilla controlled for over four decades and only a few brave collectors ventured there in the late '60's and even to this day it remains a dangerous area for non-partisans. Guerilla factions and/or narcotrafficantes are in control of most of the Putumayo drainage. This has made this area less well explored by tropical fish collectors than the safer Rio Nanay and Lago Tefe' discus areas.
Jack Wattley has written that he did collect some Putumayo Greens and used them in part, to develop his own strains of Turquoise discus. He also wrote that he would not risk another trip there due to the dangerous conditions.

[plecocicho]

Beatifull greens, Zulu!. Can you send me on my private messeges, how much did they cost you?
lp

[toomanyfish]

these are the ones i was talking about.the one on the left is a bit shy but the one on right is very aggressive

[Apistomaster]

toomanyfish,
Those look more like nice brown discus rather than greens.

[Zulu]

You are right, those greens are smaller than other greens. As you say some nanays have yellowish eyes and I think this is Putumayo blood.
Months ago I imported nearly 100 nanays and I can say there is a big color variability, more than other greens I think.

Regards

Zulu,
You have some grade AAA Green discus.
I don't see how the smaller form of less brilliant fish would be Rio Nanay fish due to the time lines. This particular green discus is the smallest of all the wild types I am familiar with.
They were not established in the Rio Nanay before 1968 to the best of my knowledge. The fish introduced to the Rio Nanay began as among the best specimens since the original intent was to raise high quality fish nearer to the center of distribution.
I was receiving two forms of greens back then. Those that there seems to be good consensus that were mainly from Lago Tefe' before they had been fished to their present day lowered populations. They were colored like your fish although not the same level of quality as your's which are clearly are some of the top 1%. They also grew as large as most discus and had long pelvic fins as adults.

Then there were those simply being called "Peruvian Greens" that were less colorful, smaller adult size and never grew very long pelvic fins no matter how old they were. They behaved very differently than the current Rio Nanay or further reaches of Lago Tefe' fish.One other difference I always noticed was the smaller "Peruvian Green" did not typically have very red eyes. Yellow to almost red -brown eye color was typical. There was also a definite difference in price when I was receiving them. They were about the same price as a common brown sold for in those days. The Tefe' Greens were always more in line with the prices brought by Brazilian Semi Royal Blues. A "Peruvian Green" sold wholesale in 1968-70 for ~$10 wholesale. A Tefe' Green not as nice as yours but better than average would run about $20 each wholesale.
Please understand that I do not mean to sound argumentative all I am hoping for is more iformation to be accumulated since there are some of us who do remember our experiences with these "Peruvian Greens" and were struck by the differences we experience with them compared to other greens.. I am trying to narrow down where such relatively plain and small Green Discus do come from because those I have experience with were much different as aquarium fish than the typical Greens most of the younger discus keepers have experienced. They do not seem like the majority of the green discus being sold world wide. To me, they do resemble some discus that are found naturally in the Rio Putumayo but that collecting area has historically been Colombian FARC guerilla controlled for over four decades and only a few brave collectors ventured there in the late '60's and even to this day it remains a dangerous area for non-partisans. Guerilla factions and/or narcotrafficantes are in control of most of the Putumayo drainage. This has made this area less well explored by tropical fish collectors than the safer Rio Nanay and Lago Tefe' discus areas.
Jack Wattley has written that he did collect some Putumayo Greens and used them in part, to develop his own strains of Turquoise discus. He also wrote that he would not risk another trip there due to the dangerous conditions.

[toomanyfish]

so these are not the fish we discussing?

[brewmaster15]

Hi Larry,

It is good to get the feed back from other "old timers". As I said, it has been a long time since I have seen this type. My original importations of them predates the introduction of Green Discus into the Rio Nanay. I was receiving them as early as 1968. Their behavior and maximum size is not nearly as bold or aggressive and as large as the more usual Green discus. They never develop long pelvic fins like most other Greens. The colors were never better than those of R. Collins fish. They never have striations that extend through their heads let alone into the body. They rarely had striations on the head worth noting.
My hunch is that they represent a localized population of Greens that has had some time in isolation from the larger ranging and more common forms of greens. They are not typical Tefe' Greens. Most Green Discus I have had grow to 5 inches or more in diameter and have not lacked aggression or boldness. Head striations are usually much more prominent. Notice the longer pelvic fins? It is also about 5-1/2 inches in diameter.

The most unusual thing about this race of Green Discus is it's relatively small maximum size the adults reach but there are differences in their color that also typifies these fish. Their smaller size makes them rather nice for maintaining a group in less than huge aquariums. Their behavior tends to be shy. Not nearly as bold as most wild Green Discus. In fact, they behave much like Heckels. I had not seen these type of Green Discus for many decades until my friend sent me photos of his new fish. He is a very accomplished aquarist and a breeder of rare catfish and is well known at www.planetcatfish.com These just happened to be his first discus. They are being kept at a pH of ~5.0, TDS of >50 ppm and 28.5*C/84*F.
Does anyone have any specific idea where this form of Green is collected other than just the Peruvian Amazon area?
It is easy to see how some could mistake them for a brown discus.

I've never heard of a smaller Race of wild greens before...It doesn't seem likely since evolutionarily Smaller races of a species develop in habits that limited in size, resources, and geographic isolation and that doesn't appear to be the case in the Amazon river systems...... Not saying its not possible...or that I have the practical experience of having collected wild greens......but it doesn't seem likely.. I guess what I would also like to say is that its not a good idea to artificially call a group of fish a "race" just because they look similar...Races are delineated by many characteristics including geographic parameters...and without knowing where these supposed dwarf discus come from...its really hard to call them a race. whats more is it it leads to urban legends and mis-informations,IMO.

What I have seen is wild greens that are collected very small, under 3 inches...they are often sold in large cases and very inexpensive....I have received these myself over the years... Often the fish are stunted probably due to lack of food and improper care and hard transport....I can see this kind of care leading to stunted Wild greens just as it leads to stunted Domestics...

I too am not trying to be argumentative...this is just my opinion and experiences.

hth,
al