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Thread: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

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    Thumbs up "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Hi Discus Lovers,
    I am starting a thread on "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info ." My aim is to learn and channel what breeding techniques creates these amazing beauties. I will also like to hear from both sides i.e novices to the experts from their trials, failures and success. I am a novice breeder with little experience on the genetics of discus. However i have raised other types of ornamental fishes and using my breeding techniques, i have adopted them to breeding discus. Some of the ideas and techniques mentioned here are what i have gathered from articles as well as experience, both from myself and breeders (not in the discus realm), if there are any inaccurate information i humbly apologize.

    There are 2 main types of breeding.
    -Inbreeding and
    -Crossbreeding.
    These also have several sub divisions within the main classification.

    Inbreeding refers to (“blood-related”) breeding where individuals are closer related than the average population.
    Inbreeding is often used when a new breed or strain is created or one of the individuals has perished and one wants to continue the line as it is not available externally. However it has both inherent advantages and disadvantages. This is where one must be vigilant in following proper breeding techniques since recessive genes can become dominant causing more damage than intended. This type of breeding has been used extensively in agriculture i.e. crops and livestock. Inbreeding seldomly occurs in nature but due to man's influence we have selectively breed related individuals for our own fancy and purpose. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

    There are different methods of "Īnbreeding" : parent -sibling, sibling - sibling, cousins - cousins, uncle/ aunt - niece/nephew, and grand parents- grandchildren etc . The list goes on. The main purpose for doing this is to align the scrambled genetic material and channel it into a new breed as well as to create a cloning method where predictable genetics prevail. Hence "back-breeding" (parent to offspring) is performed to ensure a greater amount of one's genetic material is achieved in future generation.
    THE GOLDEN RULE I FOLLOW IS THAT THE INITIAL BREEDING MUST BE UNRELATED AS WELL AS THE BREEDS ARE 100% PURE SUPERIOR SPECIMENS.This is easier said than done. Superior individuals must be used since average individuals create average type offsprings or lesser and genetic degradation will occur. Parallel breeding lines are often use with this technique since one may need to reintroduce similar genetic material from an existing line if one fails. The other is that we heavily link breeding with the "Y" chromosome and one should view both "Y"and "X" genetics. Another factor is that crossing of cousins is a better solution since they are not too closely related and both vigor, viability and vitality is achieved.

    "Crossbreeding" on the other hand is hybridization. It refers to (“non blood-related”) breeding where individuals are not related. Two sub-divisions are mentioned here. Firstly Crossbreeding with similar individuals of the same breed (not blood related) and secondly Outcrossing matings of completely different STABLE unique individuals. The later results with the more dominant genetics prevailing and is a world of unpredictability. Some rules apply but genetics and DNA is a fascinating topic we have yet to master.
    Last edited by novice breeder; 06-30-2008 at 02:14 PM.

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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    What genetics are dominant?
    I know some, can the rest be expressed?

    White and Pigeon blood are dominant i.e. most of F1 carries their genes.

    Golden, blue diamond are recessive i.e most of F1 carries the other type genes. To achieve a recessive gene as dominant, both must have the recessive gene.

    Leopards are recessive and future inbreeding causes the spots to merge so back breeding or cross breeding to a strong spotted lineage is necessary for spots to prevail.

    Snakeskin and albino is a mutation. Some variations occur but their will be individuals that revert to the base or ancestor form.

    Intermediates are F1 generations: 50% resemblence of the two outcrosses. The next step is to localize the genetics or conform to a particular breed. Some times it is used to clean up a breed or unwanted genetics.

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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    I will start with this for now, however i would appreciate input from expert breeders as well as critique my methods. Secondly i would like for breeding development of other established breeds.


    BLUE WHITE BREED:

    For example snow white X blue diamond creates blue white and other intermediates. The F1 which has the desired identical color pattern is either back crossed to parent or siblings to establish a new lineage. If one wants more white or blue on F2 cross with the relevant parent.

    Golden Leopard Breed:

    Golden (Brown based) X Original Red spotted green (Spots on most of body) results in a hybrid . Cross the siblings (hybrid) with the heavily spots and goldish based together to get Golden Leopard. In this case try using a female with most spots since i believe it is "X" related.
    One can replace the red spotted green with a confirmed spotted leopard but watch for spots degradation in Subsequent generations. You could use an uncle/ aunt from F1 to strengthen the spots in F2 and onwards.

    Golden Snakeskin Breed:
    You can use a Blue snakeskin to create a Golden snakeskin using above technique. Make sure and use those that have proper straitions. Additionally use the ones with the 14 bars, some of the throwbacks results with a goldish sheen turquoise. FACT: one should know that from golden crosses (being recessive) approx 15% (estimated guess) will result in gold coloration.


    I don't know what chromosomes are related for the new line and i need advice.
    Last edited by novice breeder; 06-30-2008 at 02:48 PM.

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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Homozygous- An animal is considered homozygous when they have two identical alleles or DNA sequences at one locus (position on the chromosomes). This can occur for both ressessive and dominant genes.

    Heterozygous- An animal is considered heterozygous when they have two different alleles or DNA sequences at one locus.

    When 2 discus are bred that are homozygous for a particular gene, you will produce 100% homozygous progeny (except in the extremely rare case of gene mutation) ie blue diamond x blue diamond = 100% blue diamond or in the case of a dominant gene snow white x snow white = 100% snow white.

    When 2 discus are bred where one is a dominant homozygous individual and the other a ressessive homozygous individual the dominant gene will be expressed in 100% of the progeny. A pigeon blood x albino is a good example, all the progeny will look like pigeon bloods, but they are not homozygous, they are now considered heterozygous for the pigeon allele and the wild color allele ( wild color because that is the dominant gene for the albino). What this means is if they are then inbred you will get a mix of wild color and pigeons, among the pigeons (which dominates even over the wild dominant gene)some will be homozygous (1/3) and some heterozygous(2/3). All the wild color are homozygous.
    In my example here i used the ressessive gene albino to make things interesting and indeed this gene disappears in the 1st generation of the cross, none of the fry will be albino pigeons! All the fry have 1 albino allele at the locus so are called carriers or intermediates. When 2 of these are bred together to produce the f2 generation, 1/4 of the fry will become homozygous for albino, another 1/4 will become homozygous for wild color, and 1/2 will be heterozygous for albino just like the parents.
    When we want to combine the 2 desirable traits to make a homozygous strain of pigeon albino, i like to think in terms of 2 different goals to simplify the process in my mind. What i mean is we first need to introduce the genes ie f1 generation so a homozygous pigeon is crossed with a homozygous albino. All the f1 are heterozygous, in the case of the pigeon gene we can inbreed f1's and produce 25% homozygous pigeons, 50% heterozygous pigeons and 25% homozygous wild color. We discard the wild color and heterozygous pigeons (discovered by breeding results) and are left with true breeding pigeons. So 25 % of the f2's are true pigeons and now will produce 100% pigeons in the f3 generation. Regarding the albino gene, when we inbred the f1 generation, we produced 25% homozygous albino's, 50% albino carriers, and 25% wild type's in the f2 generation.
    When these results are brought together, it shows that of the homozygous pigeons produced, 25% are also homozygous albinos. A quarter of a quarter is 6.25% so that many will be homozygous albino pigeons.
    There will also be 6.25% homozygous pigeons.
    12.5% homozygous pigeons carrying the albino gene.
    12.5% albino heterozygous pigeons
    25% heterozygous pigeons carrying the albino gene.
    12.5% heterozygous pigeons
    6.25% albino
    12.5% wild color carrying albino gene
    6.25% wild type

    When the f2 homozygous albino pigeons are inbred they will produce 100% homozygous albino pigeons and our goal is reached.

    Rod
    Last edited by Rod; 07-02-2008 at 12:17 AM. Reason: punctuation

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    Question Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Is SNOW LEOPARD AND SNOW SNAKE THE F2 GENERATION????


    WHITE LEOPARD BREED:

    For example SNOW WHITE X LEOPARD creates WHITE LEOPARDS and other intermediates. The F1 which has the desired identical color pattern is breed to siblings to establish a new lineage. This F2 generation is what we call SNOW LEOPARD.

    For the Snow Snake, replace the leopard with a snakeskin and proceed for the F2 to obtain Snow Snake.

    Any Suggestions?
    Last edited by novice breeder; 07-16-2008 at 08:42 AM.

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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    That is very interested in topic and good educated.

    I would like Rod or Novice Breeder can show pictures of the offspring that you cross breed, cross back with the parents, etc. the pictures would help us to better understand.

    That is long way to work on breed to make new strains, pure bloodline, etc it takes 4 or 5 or 6 years to make final strain their goals. but depend on what their age to able to spawn.

    I have 9 babies gold leopard snakeskin but i have no prove but i guess, because i got the offspring from the leoaprd snakeskin. What I believe that the leopard has gene is carry gold leoaprd or gold leopard snakeskin or golden or golden snakeskin? i need to find out my 9 gold leopard snakeskin to grow out. the golden has 14 to 16 bars. i should take picture of them and post here.

    Duncan

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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Hi Novice, i am not so sure that snow leopard could ever be considered a true strain, let me explain. They are bred from a snow white and a leopard and the results are as you say. But the f2 contains lots of snow leopard, but also wild type and snow whites. The sw and wild looking ones are the homozygous individuals and will breed true if they are bred as sw to sw or wt to wt. But all the snow leopards will be heterozygous and cannot produce 100% snow leopard babies no matter how many generations you breed. So it is possible to then select best patterns for future breeding and you will get a lot of nice snow leopards, but true strain, never!

    Rod

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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    This is great discussion. I have a few questions:
    1. In read earlier I read mutation - These mutations are purposely induced correct? I have also read other terms such as bulldog/standing egg how can are these alterations induced on purpose?
    2. What are throwbacks?
    3. As we progress thru fx to get more closer to our goal; does that change nature of the fish? e.g. some strains are skittish than the other or is this purely behavioral trait?
    Ashay Sathe
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    Blog: http://vrsathe.blogspot.com/

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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Hi ashaysathe,

    1. I could well be wrong here, but i believe all mutations in discus are naturally bred. But i don't doubt some breeders have experimented on creating mutants by purposely inducing them...i have read of experiments as far back as the 1950's on xray and siamese fighters....why not discus!

    The standing egg, bull dog gene is controlled by a mutant ressessive gene which appears to affect the skeletal structure of the discus. There also appears to be different levels of effect hence the different names for different looks.

    2. Throwbacks is a very general term breeders apply to discus that are produced by breeding heterozygous types together. Like in the breeding of snow white and wild type, in the f1 they are all heterozygous snow leopards. But in f2 you will get snow white and wild type babies, these are the throwbacks as they have the pure dominent genes of the grandparents and will look as such. You must breed homozygous individuals to avoid getting throwbacks and in some types this is immpossible. Snow leopard and other white cross strains are a good example of this.

    3. Very good question, i wonder about that myself. It is well shown in dogs and cats that what you describe does happen. Do discus have the same capacity for brain function as a mammal?....i think the answer is yes. I believe we breeders should select for behavioural traits, disease resistence , not too aggresive disposition, as well as how the discus looks.
    Off course discus can be skittish by water quality or disease, so water and care must always be adequate for the discus.

    Rod

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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Hi,

    Off-late we have seen majority of shipments with "Red/Orange/Golden" based fish. e.g. Penang Erruption is an instant hit; Albino LSS are instant hit.
    Why isn't there a blue genetics ? To my limited exposure I have not seen a blue striated fish for sale in a few shipments. Jeffery Yang used to ship amazing Altum Flora and Blue Turq. But not anymore. Dunno why.. may be a demand/supply thing?
    Question to you on this topic is - If my goal is Blue Spotted fish what would be my parents to get that?
    Again all variations are golden/red based; why a blue based mutation not tried may be tried but not sold or not as vibrant or appealing. Any thoughts?
    Last edited by ashaysathe; 08-27-2008 at 10:54 AM.
    Ashay Sathe
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    Blog: http://vrsathe.blogspot.com/

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    Registered Member Rod's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Quote Originally Posted by ashaysathe View Post
    Hi,

    Off-late we have seen majority of shipments with "Red/Orange/Golden" based fish. e.g. Penang Erruption is an instant hit; Albino LSS are instant hit.
    Why isn't there a blue genetics ? To my limited exposure I have not seen a blue striated fish for sale in a few shipments. Jeffery Yang used to ship amazing Altum Flora and Blue Turq. But not anymore. Dunno why.. may be a demand/supply thing?
    Question to you on this topic is - If my goal is Blue Spotted fish what would be my parents to get that?
    Again all variations are golden/red based; why a blue based mutation not tried may be tried but not sold or not as vibrant or appealing. Any thoughts?
    Hi,

    There are many blue based discus available, my latest import from Jeffrey Yang included 6 blue varieties if i am following your definition correctly. They are the most popular group and almost all suppliers will have them available.

    Penang eruption is not red/orange/golden based as you suggest, they are a wild form of discus but carrying snakeskin genetics. Pattern is manipulated by selective breeding only, not mutation base like red/orange/golden.

    many semi royal blue wilds have a spotted pattern, or crosses between browns and royal blues will also give blue spots.

    Do you really know what is a mutation? You mention blue based mutation and why they aren't being tried! I wish it were that easy, mutation is not something you can try for, it is pure luck. There have been only around 10 interesting mutated discus varieties out of the many millions of spawns us hobbiests have performed around the world. It is not something that can be 'tried'.

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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    This is a great thread! I have some questions.

    1. How do you determine a mutation in a crossbred first generation? Would you need to breed back with the parent or sibling?

    2. If I am reading this right, will breeding 2 siblings of desirable traits form a cross result in similar traits of those siblings or will they be more similar to the original cross breed parents?

    I recently crossed a blue diamond with an alenquer and am very curious as to the mix of the offspring they will produce and how to get the desirable traits to form a more stable base.

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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Hi mcsinny,

    1. Mutant discus look vastly different and will be clearly so amongst the spawn, for instance if you are breeding 2 red turquoise parents and suddenly some blue diamonds appear amongst the fry, it is because a grandparent or more distant relative was a blue diamond and was crossbred into the strain. This can happen when a mutant discus is controlled by a ressessive gene, it passes the gene to future generations without actually causing them to show the mutation. It is only when 2 carriers of the mutant gene are bred together come bd's from red turk parents.
    Inbreeding is possibly the best way to determine genetic traits, but breeding back with parents and other relatives and even outbreeding all have a place in determining genetic makeup.

    2. The short answer is most likely no. It depends on what the original cross was and how the genes are controlling.

    Crossing with a blue diamond means all the fry are carrying a ressessive mutant gene for the bd. If you were to inbreed the progeny from your cross you will receive blue diamond fry. Or back crossing the progeny with a blue diamond should give you a 50/50 split.

    Good luck with your breeding

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    Registered Member prolude006's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    So what would a Cobalt blue x Red turq give you for fry possibly?
    Is it generally considered best to breed discus of the same variety? Do breeders try for unique strands of colors and patterns or go for a more pure bred fish if you can call it that?
    Mine paired off and I keep 5 discus together, all of a different color variation! So I had no choice!! lol

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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    I think perhaps a sticky with 3-4 inches into development is in order. Maybe prepare a current list of cross-types and percentages. I will volunteer my cross mix. I will start with these pics...

    Parents



    One inch offspring 1st gen, lost a few, 60 left...



    My new quest is whether or not the red pectoral fin can be joined with the blue cover. They won't stop breeding, very healthy couple. They seem very small, but they are workin'.

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