"Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

[Rod]

I never see just 'goldens' any more; they seem to be 'golden this' and 'golden that'. Would you expect these fry to be simply 'golden', or 'golden this or that?' I read that the original goldens were weak, and so they tended to be used for crossing. I don't know if that is the case, or if 'golden this or that' has more market value.

Well they will be solid colored golden i expect, and being bred from red cover should be solid red goldens. My thoughts on this is the red covers you have are likely throwbacks from breeding experiments trying to make red goldens. Some breeder has crossed his red golden with solid red normal discus to improve the red color or some other feature. In my own case i use the golden for solid red ring eye color, nothing beats a golden for eye color imo. My albino alenquers had very very poor eye color, as did many of the original albinos. By crossing with the golden within 2 generation, pure red eyes will be found among the fry.

As for any problems this golden gene can impart on the fry, i don't see any negative affects like slow growth, weak fry, small spawns or any of the other problems we have read about. Perhaps in the beginning this was true, i don't know, but now i think those thoughts are very much outdated.

Market value, well they are not worth any more, similar priced from what i see in asia. Most strains no longer have the name golden in them, even if they are clearly of golden origins.

[mmorris]

Lots to think about! I've never had a pair throw fry that I don't know what they will look like, relatively. I have no idea what a red golden looks like. Any clues? Striations? Both red cover parents have amber eyes but a sibling has red. I was told that red is dominant over amber. Is this true? It doesn't make sense if I can expect the goldens to have red eyes. What could I cross with the red covers to bring out the red a bit more? One is really quite gold (surprise surprise) and the other is quite brownish.

[Rod]

The only impact the golden gene makes will be on the base color. Face striations etc will be no more prevalent among the goldens than among the normals. I have attached a pic of what a red golden looks like, this particular version has the common name of flamingo.

But if your pair is not so red, more golden brown, then likely the fry will also be more golden brown, and the golden gene ones more yellow to orangish. This may sound a little contradictory, but do not think of the golden gene as a golden colored fish. Indeed many golden gene fish have a yellowish base, but many more do not. The original golden gene mutation had a beige base but has been selectivly bred to come in many varieties many of which have no or little golden color at all. This is the problem with common names, personally i'd like to see a code given to different gene mutations rather than a silly common name. We could say for arguments sake, this fish has a gd4 mutation which i think would be far less confusing.

Red eye color is dominent?? I don't think eye color in discus is controlled in the normal mendal's genetics fashion. If this were the case then it would be extremly easy to manipulate the eye color. Yet how rare are really good eyes in modern strains? Blue diamonds and thier kind, leopards and leopard snakeskins and thier kind, really good red eyes are very hard to come by, particularly in mature specimens. If your pair are throwing red eye specimens then i would definatly put them aside for further breeding if they are otherwise quality specimens. But i don't think it is as easy as crunching the numbers in a punnett square to get future red eye results.

If you want redder fish, then you will need to either selectively breed for red color, or buy redder fish and cross into your line. Red color is built up by accumulation, breed the reddest with the reddest and keep selecting each generation the reddest. Overall the whole line will improve in red color. Again i don't think a punnett square is of much use here.

HTH

Rod

[mmorris]

Thanks for your thoughts, Rod. I'm pleased to hear my understanding of eye color was misinformed. I certainly think these red covers are worth working with, and I'm very curious to see what the goldens will turn out like. Love the flamingo! I haven't been adding any red enhancers to the bh because I have blues and albinos but perhaps I'll add some and set it aside for these.

[Rod]

I don't add any enhancers to my beefheart mix either. For the red fish, browns and turk tanks i add tetra color bits to the diet along with all the other foods.

[mmorris]

I feed tetra bits but sporadically. I felt a bit foolish admiting that I don't add color enhancers after commenting on color...nice to know you don't as well.

[Rod]

I used to add all kinds of foods for color, but since i import yellows and i don't want to make extra food specifically for them, i deleted it all. Since i have done so i have seen no noticeable drop off in color or health. Just the tetra bits every 2nd day for the large fish and once a day for the growing ones seems to maintain great colors.

[mmorris]

I used to add all kinds of foods for color, but since i import yellows and i don't want to make extra food specifically for them, i deleted it all. Since i have done so i have seen no noticeable drop off in color or health. Just the tetra bits every 2nd day for the large fish and once a day for the growing ones seems to maintain great colors.

A good plan for me to follow.

[mmorris]

Does it look like a golden? Am I seeing pepper? I swear I can see faint bars though.

[Eddie]

Does it look like a golden? Am I seeing pepper? I swear I can see faint bars though.

It looks pigeon based, like a Red Melon fry.

[Rod]

Does it look like a golden? Am I seeing pepper? I swear I can see faint bars though.

I can see black pigments, but i can't see pepper as in pigeon blood pepper. None on the nose or the caudal peduncle/caudal base. Brown based, golden based and pigeon based all have black pigments on them and it is entirely possible for them all to express it in the places we can see it like the lips, fin rays etc. Do all the golden based ones look like this? With the pigeon based gene we are likely to see much variation in the expression of black pigments, some will have quite heavy expression in area's while some won't, whereas with golden based they will be very similar to each other, if not virtually identical within the one particular type. The faint bars do point towards a golden i believe.

[mmorris]

I can see black pigments, but i can't see pepper as in pigeon blood pepper. None on the nose or the caudal peduncle/caudal base. Brown based, golden based and pigeon based all have black pigments on them and it is entirely possible for them all to express it in the places we can see it like the lips, fin rays etc. Do all the golden based ones look like this? With the pigeon based gene we are likely to see much variation in the expression of black pigments, some will have quite heavy expression in area's while some won't, whereas with golden based they will be very similar to each other, if not virtually identical within the one particular type. The faint bars do point towards a golden i believe.

Thanks Rod. I didn't think they were pb, particularly considering what appears to be very faint bars. Yes, I think most, if not all, have this pigment, particularly on the lips and on the top of the head.

[Melissa]

I cant believe... I just read this entire thread,...... In one sitting.

My eyes hurt....

Any update Martha? I'm very interested to find out what those golden babes turned out like!

[mmorris]

Wow! One reading! The golden ones are slow growers, although one recently shot ahead. Any ideas now, Rod? Perhaps it is still too early to tell because their colour hasn't changed much.

[Melissa]

I really like the look of it Martha!! Very pretty :-D

Its like an Orange Cover... or a Tangerine Cover! lol It looks like its getting that lovely halo and everything. Very nice looking fish IMO.