"Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

[mmorris]

Gorgeous fish, Rod.

[gwrace]

So I have three pairs from Kenny that have decided to cohabitate. I was wondering what kind of off spring I can expect from these pairings. The first are two high back turqs so no questions there. The 2nd pair is a red checkerboard and blue diamond. The 3rd pair is a red checkerboard and blue snakeskin.

Thanks!

[Rod]

So I have three pairs from Kenny that have decided to cohabitate. I was wondering what kind of off spring I can expect from these pairings. The first are two high back turqs so no questions there. The 2nd pair is a red checkerboard and blue diamond. The 3rd pair is a red checkerboard and blue snakeskin.

Thanks!

2nd pair will be all/mostly pigeons with a large variation in the pattern and colors. Any non pigeons will be turquoise looking.

3rd pair, the same as 2nd pair except you will also see pigeon snakeskins and possibly some blue snakeskins along with the rest.

Most likely the fry will have increased pepper and black coloring compared to the pigeon parent.

Rod

[gwrace]

2nd pair will be all/mostly pigeons with a large variation in the pattern and colors. Any non pigeons will be turquoise looking.

3rd pair, the same as 2nd pair except you will also see pigeon snakeskins and possibly some blue snakeskins along with the rest.

Most likely the fry will have increased pepper and black coloring compared to the pigeon parent.

Rod

Thank you Rod. Wigglers showed up this morning from the checkerboard-blue diamond cross. Now the fun begins again...

[Rod]

Nice one gw, good luck with the fry

[mmorris]

Do cobalts breed true? Should I expect some turqs in the batch? If so, is it possible to tell the turqs from the cobalts at an early age - say, 2 inches?

[Rod]

Do cobalts breed true? Should I expect some turqs in the batch? If so, is it possible to tell the turqs from the cobalts at an early age - say, 2 inches?

Hi Martha,


Blue color in cobalts is controlled by epistatic inheritance [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistasis ] and is very difficult to control. It takes many generations to align these genes and is what breeders mean when they 'purify' a strain. To answer your question Martha, some cobalts breed pretty true, others not so much. Some strains only the male will become solid, it really varies a lot between types. I don't think you can tell with very young 2" discus.

Rod

[mmorris]

Thanks for that, Rod. Do you know the cobalt's genetic background and what gene is modifying what? I knew that the striations on the body did not always disappear. Is that what you are referring to? If the striations do not disappear, are they not still cobalts? Or are you talking about the possible appearance of other strains entirely, like turqs and blue diamonds?

[Rod]

Do you know the cobalt's genetic background and what gene is modifying what?

No genetic mutation Martha, not in the sense of a single dominant or recessive gene anyway. It is controlled by quantatative traits, many genes interacting with each other on different loci. Basically with this type (and other "wild" forms like red turks, rsg etc etc) it is a matter of accumulation of genes that express lots of blue. Nature gave us this information. You keep "steering" the wild genes towards blueness, from each generation you would choose the bluest, and little by little more of the progeny will be this blueness. A good analogy would be evolution by natural selection EXCEPT we are the selectors instead of nature.

I knew that the striations on the body did not always disappear. Is that what you are referring to? If the striations do not disappear, are they not still cobalts?

I have always considered the cobalt as a solid pattern with iridescent blue color. A solid colored version of brilliant blue. But there are no rules with discus classification and i think different keepers would have different definitions for this. I would still consider them as cobalts, but of a lower grading. A good strain is a homogenous strain and those strains that show a mixture of forms are not at fixation and not really a true strain. When the type is not at fixation it is common to have reversion towards a more wild type. In this case some may look more like brilliant blues and some may even look like normal blue types without the iridescence. ie blue turk.

Or are you talking about the possible appearance of other strains entirely, like turqs and blue diamonds?

Turqs are possible as discussed above, but not blue diamonds. Bd's, contrary to popular opinion, are not the result of breeding for blue color per se. They are a true mutation controlled by a single gene and are recessive. This makes them utterly different, and the fact they were originally developed from cobalt types does not make this statement false. Some breeders have crossed bd's with cobalt types, and owing to the recessive nature of the gene it is possible to produce bd's from cobalts, but genetically they are very different. They will not show up in a spawn of cobalts that are at fixation.

Hope that helps Martha, and i explained myself adequately.

Rod

[mmorris]

Good stuff, Rod. I would think that since Cobalts have been around for so long, they would be a fixed strain by now. As I understand you, the likelihood of my pair producing mostly cobalts with solid bodies and iridescent blue coloring depends on whether the pair come from a relatively fixed lineage, and not all cobalt lines are that far along. Is that right?

[Rod]

Good stuff, Rod. I would think that since Cobalts have been around for so long, they would be a fixed strain by now. As I understand you, the likelihood of my pair producing mostly cobalts with solid bodies and iridescent blue coloring depends on whether the pair come from a relatively fixed lineage, and not all cobalt lines are that far along. Is that right?

Yes, spot on Martha.

When i first started with discus the cobalt was one of the must have strains. They were carefully bred by the top breeders and relative to todays strains, i believe were of a higher quality. Not to say there are not good strains about today, but certainly less interest is shown by the top breeders and i feel there are many strains that have reverted somewhat.

[mmorris]

Pity that. The cobalt blue is beautiful!

[xoxpebblesxox]

to all you clever people who are in the know about Discus breeding.

I have had 3 Discus for about 5 months now. I only keep them because i think they are gorgeous! I had no intention of breeding them, they all have fantastic colours, but the are all a little peppered. I have one that i know as a Red Map although no one seems to know what i mean by that on here! i have a yellow diamond and a red melon.

the last few weeks the map and the melon have started laying eggs on my filter. as it is a community tank all the other little fish i have soon gobbled up the eggs.

last night i caught the discus laying their eggs so i separated them off from the rest of the tank. they seem to be doing well, although i know nothing about it personally but i thought they at least deserve a fighting chance at raising their babies!

anyone my big question is... when you mix a red melon with a red map what colours are you likely to get? i realise that as i dont have really high quality fish they are not going to be high quality fry... but it would be nice to know if anyone knows.... i have trawled the net for hours in search of an answer.... still no further forward! x

[Rod]

Hi Pebbles,

A red map is just a variation of a checkerboard style/striated pigeon blood, from memory an Indonesian strain. There was a local importer in my city bringing them in a few years ago, so i have seen plenty of them. Crossing with a red melon which is also a pigeon blood strain, you will get all or almost all pigeon bloods depending on how the gene is being carried by your adults. If you get non pigeons, they will look like typical brown based crosses. The other gene you have to consider is the gene which controls the solid pattern of your melon. This is a co-dominant gene so you will likely get 25 to 50 percent with a solid pattern like your red melon. The rest will be highly variable in terms of pattern and black peppering. Good luck

[Silver]

Wow it took me long time to read most of the postings here... but I do have one question, my pair laid eggs yesterday and its their first time so I was wondering what color of the fry would it be? here is a picture..... Thanks...