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Thread: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

  1. #31
    Registered Member Rod's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Quote Originally Posted by mcsinny99 View Post
    Thanks for the tip on the Punnett square. With discus do we use the the 2 letter per side or 4 letter per side version?
    i always think in terms of 1 trait at a time, i find it easier on my head.
    Also, to determine what is recessive and what is dominant, is the 25% fairly reliable (on 2 letter square, example BB,Bb x CC, Cc = 25% bc)?

    Yep, pretty reliable.

    How many generations in will the traits reveal themselves as dominant or recessive, or in the case of 2 recessive which of the 2 is dominant recessive?

    1 spawn will reveal ressessive or dominant, dominant traits will show themselves, while ressessives hide. ie cross a brown with a pigeon and you will get pigeon fry....dominant. Cross a brown with a golden and you get 100% brown fry....ressessive.

    On second generation of a crossed pair would the 4 letter per slot box be the best?
    Trying to think this all out for the first time is a great way to get a headache. Thanks afor all help.
    that is one method, i prefer 1 trait at a time for simplicity.

    Rod

  2. #32
    Registered Member Rod's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Thanks for the tip on the Punnett square. With discus do we use the the 2 letter per side or 4 letter per side version?

    i always think in terms of 1 trait at a time, i find it easier on my head.


    Also, to determine what is recessive and what is dominant, is the 25% fairly reliable (on 2 letter square, example BB,Bb x CC, Cc = 25% bc)?

    Yep, pretty reliable.

    How many generations in will the traits reveal themselves as dominant or recessive, or in the case of 2 recessive which of the 2 is dominant recessive?

    1 spawn will reveal ressessive or dominant, dominant traits will show themselves, while ressessives hide. ie cross a brown with a pigeon and you will get pigeon fry....dominant. Cross a brown with a golden and you get 100% brown fry....ressessive.

    On second generation of a crossed pair would the 4 letter per slot box be the best?
    Trying to think this all out for the first time is a great way to get a headache. Thanks afor all help.

    that is one method, i prefer 1 trait at a time for simplicity.

    Rod

  3. #33
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Quote Originally Posted by MostlyDiscus View Post
    No harm intended naked santa but your Av would scare my kids(I really dont know what to think of it). No bust on your poor fish(they cant help the enviorment you have shackled them with) but they look awfull. I would have destroyed them weeks ago and would never condiser them for breeding. Sorry bud... just the way I see it.
    Real nice "bud".
    They have had fry on them for quite some time, when this happens sometimes they look a little shabby, but perhaps I will consider culling them for mating. As for enviornment, I "shackled" them in a 50% daily water change tank and feed them from my hand with or without fry.

    My kids were very upset today as well when you told them the family pets should be destroyed. We always start the day with in depth discussions on genetics while they get ready for pre school.

    Great comment.
    Last edited by mcsinny99; 12-11-2008 at 03:10 PM.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Quote Originally Posted by Rod View Post
    Thanks for the tip on the Punnett square. With discus do we use the the 2 letter per side or 4 letter per side version?

    i always think in terms of 1 trait at a time, i find it easier on my head.


    Also, to determine what is recessive and what is dominant, is the 25% fairly reliable (on 2 letter square, example BB,Bb x CC, Cc = 25% bc)?

    Yep, pretty reliable.

    How many generations in will the traits reveal themselves as dominant or recessive, or in the case of 2 recessive which of the 2 is dominant recessive?

    1 spawn will reveal ressessive or dominant, dominant traits will show themselves, while ressessives hide. ie cross a brown with a pigeon and you will get pigeon fry....dominant. Cross a brown with a golden and you get 100% brown fry....ressessive.

    On second generation of a crossed pair would the 4 letter per slot box be the best?
    Trying to think this all out for the first time is a great way to get a headache. Thanks afor all help.

    that is one method, i prefer 1 trait at a time for simplicity.

    Rod
    So, and I think I have it, when sticking to the smaller punnett square per trait does that then allow for hidden genes within a cross? Aka ab vs Ab in their repspective squares.

  5. #35
    Platinum Member MostlyDiscus's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    99

    Sorry about the "bud" thing. Just havent seen a name for you. Please tell me that was not a picture of you mostly naked in the avatar that was banned. My guess is that you are of a unique intellect and sense of humor. Forgive me for being harsh on the picture of your breeders. I have had to destroy many discus in the past that would otherwise be passed on to others that shouldnt be passed on. I have grown a little numb to the hobbyist side of things. Be Well and Merry Christmas to you and your family. Ed

  6. #36
    Registered Member Rod's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Quote Originally Posted by mcsinny99 View Post
    So, and I think I have it, when sticking to the smaller punnett square per trait does that then allow for hidden genes within a cross? Aka ab vs Ab in their repspective squares.
    Hidden genes are controlled by ressessive genes, ressessives are always denoted with a small letter. Dominants a capital letter. If we were to use the golden and cross with a wild brown the progeny would therefore be denoted as Wg. This means they look like a wild type, but carry a golden ressessive. Each letter represents an allele from each parent. When we breed the Wg's together, and apply it to the punnett square we would get 1 square with WW, 2 squares with Wg and 1 square gg. Only 1/4 are gg, theses ones look like goldens and are pure breeding. The rest are browns, but 2/3 are Wg just like the parents. And this is how genes can be controlled, lets say i decide to cross the original golden and breed with a daughter or son. That would be gg x Wg, apply that to the punnett square and you can see the results are dramatically different.

    Rod

  7. #37
    Registered Member doc3toes's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Quote Originally Posted by mcsinny99 View Post
    Have some holiday spirit!
    actually i was just joking. i sould have said that. reminds me of the rugby party days. nasty - in a funny way.
    2 x 125g semi planted, single 30g sump, 30g in line
    175g Bow
    75g grow/ QT
    200g fiberglass grow

  8. #38
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Quote Originally Posted by Rod View Post
    Hidden genes are controlled by ressessive genes, ressessives are always denoted with a small letter. Dominants a capital letter. If we were to use the golden and cross with a wild brown the progeny would therefore be denoted as Wg. This means they look like a wild type, but carry a golden ressessive. Each letter represents an allele from each parent. When we breed the Wg's together, and apply it to the punnett square we would get 1 square with WW, 2 squares with Wg and 1 square gg. Only 1/4 are gg, theses ones look like goldens and are pure breeding. The rest are browns, but 2/3 are Wg just like the parents. And this is how genes can be controlled, lets say i decide to cross the original golden and breed with a daughter or son. That would be gg x Wg, apply that to the punnett square and you can see the results are dramatically different.

    Rod
    Thanks Rod,

    I think it is starting to make some sense to me, but I am still thinking about about this. My issue is since it is a cross and not previously mapped on a punnett square I am thinking it will take at least 3 gens to truely understand which traits are dominant or recessive between the two strains. And then I can back check the squares to see which percentages are what thus giving me the dominant genes and the recessive, correct?
    The fish are from Hans, and one thing he mentioned is with his alenquers the red pectoral fin shows up in around half of them. So this doesn't really give the dominant or recessive gene.
    To throw a big wrench in this project, what will sex do this?
    I realize it is pretty well impossible to sex fry.
    I'm getting some advil.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Quote Originally Posted by doc3toes View Post
    actually i was just joking. i sould have said that. reminds me of the rugby party days. nasty - in a funny way.
    No offense taken. Just glad someone enjoyed it.
    No, it is not me.

    Anyone can google christmas avatars and find some good stuff.

    Your team was the "Fighting Santa's" I take it?
    Last edited by mcsinny99; 12-11-2008 at 06:34 PM.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    So they did it again, I am running out of tanks.
    mom



    Dad still kinda shabby, he will be good before hatch time...



    How may I mark traits from these two? Any ideas to start?

    Note the red anal fins on "mom"...
    Last edited by mcsinny99; 01-15-2009 at 05:24 AM.

  11. #41
    Registered Member Eddie's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Those are some seriously stunted discus. How big are they? They look like they are about 2.5".

    Eddie
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    "If you ask for an opinion...don't get pissed when I give you mine."

  12. #42
    Platinum Member MostlyDiscus's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Better pics 99,

    You really need to know where the backround on the pair first. Looks like a nice red maybe alanquer or inca. Blue cant really tell but maybe a turq or diamond. Its best to have a goal in mind though as to what your trying to achieve, ie albinoxTangerine line in BD and see if I can a pink or violet discus. My thought is cut your teeth on these guys and if it works for you then you may want to check out some of the vendors put known bloodlines thus giving you a starting point. LMAO about it now. I really thought that might be you in the av. That was kind of scary,funny now but scary. Ed

  13. #43
    Registered Member Rod's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Quote Originally Posted by mcsinny99 View Post
    Thanks Rod,

    I think it is starting to make some sense to me, but I am still thinking about about this. My issue is since it is a cross and not previously mapped on a punnett square I am thinking it will take at least 3 gens to truely understand which traits are dominant or recessive between the two strains. And then I can back check the squares to see which percentages are what thus giving me the dominant genes and the recessive, correct?
    The fish are from Hans, and one thing he mentioned is with his alenquers the red pectoral fin shows up in around half of them. So this doesn't really give the dominant or recessive gene.
    To throw a big wrench in this project, what will sex do this?
    I realize it is pretty well impossible to sex fry.
    I'm getting some advil.
    I think the pectorals are always clear on a discus? Maybe you mean the pelvic/ventral fins which can be yellow, orange or red on wild forms?
    Anyway, this is a dominant wild trait and all that is needed is strict selective breeding to concentrate the red pigment cells in that area for improvement. I do not think a punnett square can help you very much here. If you cross breed whatever strains, and you want super red as a feature, then you simply select for that trait, the reddest with the reddest each generation.

  14. #44
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Quote Originally Posted by Rod View Post
    I think the pectorals are always clear on a discus? Maybe you mean the pelvic/ventral fins which can be yellow, orange or red on wild forms?
    Anyway, this is a dominant wild trait and all that is needed is strict selective breeding to concentrate the red pigment cells in that area for improvement. I do not think a punnett square can help you very much here. If you cross breed whatever strains, and you want super red as a feature, then you simply select for that trait, the reddest with the reddest each generation.
    Yes you are right my bad, ventral.
    I agree they are stunted, but they are 3.5 inch. I think the lfs did it to them, the fish are orgininally from Hans, which I am sure he didn't cause the stunt.

  15. #45
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Quote Originally Posted by MostlyDiscus View Post
    Better pics 99,

    You really need to know where the backround on the pair first. Looks like a nice red maybe alanquer or inca. Blue cant really tell but maybe a turq or diamond. Its best to have a goal in mind though as to what your trying to achieve, ie albinoxTangerine line in BD and see if I can a pink or violet discus. My thought is cut your teeth on these guys and if it works for you then you may want to check out some of the vendors put known bloodlines thus giving you a starting point. LMAO about it now. I really thought that might be you in the av. That was kind of scary,funny now but scary. Ed
    What is the av? I am a hobbiest. It is an alenquer.
    Just interested in genetics and breeding. I am currently running 8 tanks, one is planted for show, rest are for the breeding.
    The goal again is blue bodied, red pelvic fins.

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