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Thread: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

  1. #76
    Registered Member kaceyo's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Hey Eddie,
    I don't have the second book, only the first. I've seen references to hairlines on the asian forums but didn't know what they were refering to. Seems like they would be useful in creating barless strains at the very least.

    Kacey

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    Homesteader Eddie's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Quote Originally Posted by kaceyo View Post
    Hey Eddie,
    I don't have the second book, only the first. I've seen references to hairlines on the asian forums but didn't know what they were refering to. Seems like they would be useful in creating barless strains at the very least.

    Kacey
    Could be, I pretty sure in Andrew's book it talks about hairlines being very weak/slow to develop. I'll have to confirm that but I am pretty positive.

    Eddie
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  3. #78
    Registered Member Rod's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Quote Originally Posted by kaceyo View Post
    Hey Rod,
    That's an interesting looking fish. Looks like my "X" before she put her make up on in the morning.
    Would the hairlines be useful in creating a line of spotteds with very small numerous spots, or more for eliminating stress bars? Have they been used in creating any strains that you know of?
    Thanks,

    Kacey
    Mate,

    Interesting is being kind, she's pretty darn ugly don't you think? Your ex can't be that bad....lol. I'll try and find a better shot but it took me over half an hour to find this one as i never really aimed the camera at her...lol. She just kinda appears in the background of a few shots of nicer tankmates.

    Regarding the breeding of them i could never get one to spawn. Just never seemed interested in doing the deed. I guess they will be incorperated into other strains in asia, but the slow growth and slow coloring doesn't sound viable as a commercial strain. They have been around for a long time now, and are still super rare.

  4. #79
    Registered Member kaceyo's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Rod,
    No, they wouldn't be worth breeding as a strain, but who knows what their genes, injected into other SS lines, might bring out.

    Kacey

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    Registered Member poconoboss's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Ok, let me see if I can understand this ( I have zero knowledge with discus breeding)....Unlike humans in which a baby will look like both parents, are you saying when you breed Discus 1 with Discus 2, you will get some fry that look like 1 and some that look like 2 based on the dom. gene? They won't be mixed?

    Do I have this right?

    I have a Red Dragon (my avatar) that has paired up with a blue cobalt and they lay eggs frequently but the wrigglers get eaten. I would like to move them to a breeding tank. If I am successful, what type of fry would I get?

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    Homesteader Eddie's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Quote Originally Posted by poconoboss View Post
    Ok, let me see if I can understand this ( I have zero knowledge with discus breeding)....Unlike humans in which a baby will look like both parents, are you saying when you breed Discus 1 with Discus 2, you will get some fry that look like 1 and some that look like 2 based on the dom. gene? They won't be mixed?

    Do I have this right?

    I have a Red Dragon (my avatar) that has paired up with a blue cobalt and they lay eggs frequently but the wrigglers get eaten. I would like to move them to a breeding tank. If I am successful, what type of fry would I get?
    I am not an expert but if your red dragon is pigeon based as it seems to be, I believe the fry will basically turn out to be very heavily peppered pigeons. Thats just knowledge from reading posts on the forum.

    Take care,

    Eddie
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  7. #82
    Registered Member Rod's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Quote Originally Posted by poconoboss View Post
    Ok, let me see if I can understand this ( I have zero knowledge with discus breeding)....Unlike humans in which a baby will look like both parents, are you saying when you breed Discus 1 with Discus 2, you will get some fry that look like 1 and some that look like 2 based on the dom. gene? They won't be mixed?
    When i like to think about genetics, i prefer to think in traits. For example, i have green eyes, my wife has blue eyes. Our children, one has green eyes, the other blue. They do not have greeny blue mixed eyes. This trait is controlled by a genetic process whereby we can use mendels law to calculate possible outcomes.
    When we look at the big picture in genetic terms, yes i agree with you that our children are a blending of the parents, and the same holds true for fish.

    Rod

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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    I have kept several of the barless (hairline?) fry and after 9 months they are half the size of the rest. About 2" vs 4" -5" for the 9 and 13 bars. I would like to grow some out just to see what they become.
    I should add that I feed them a beefheart mixture and blackworms.

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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    This thread has fried my brain! I'm trying desperately to understand possible colour combinations resulting from crossbreeding, yet after all that reading I am still no closer to understanding Some threads/books on cross-breeding/strain 'fixing' have made it sound a little too simple I think...

    I have beautiful SW Male which I'm looking to breed with a Pigeon Blood Silver. I ordered the SW from Malaysia as a AA grade, The PB is Stendker and although a fantastic fish, is HEAVILY peppered. The peppering on the fish is green.

    From my readings, I was of the understanding that breeding these two, the SW could potentially eliminate the peppering, giving me a much better Pigeon Silver. Is that possible or way off the mark? What are the possibilities, which parent/grandparent would I need to breed the appropriately coloured siblings with to 'fix' the strain?

    What other colour combinations could I expect to see?

  10. #85
    Registered Member Rod's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Both snow white and pigeon are controlled by a dominant gene. Snow white is also homozygous (meaning it has 2 identical mutant dna sequences). Pigeon can be either homozygous or heterozygous (only 1 mutant dna sequence)

    When we breed these together, the resulting fry will all be snow white based as this gene dominates over pigeon, every single one of them. But they will be heterozygous offspring.

    I'll try and explain a little better. The discus egg gets 1 dna sequence from each parent at conception, to make a pair of dna sequences on each position of the chromosomes of the new baby. This determines what the fish will look like. Homozygous = identical pairing of dna sequence. When we cross this does not happen, we are getting 2 different dna sequences so this is called heterozygous.

    Lets assume your pigeon is also homozygous. This means the fry will be both pigeon and snow white based. Both dominant genes struggling for exposure. We already discussed above that all the fry will be snow white based, and indeed this is true. But none will look like a snow white, there will be markings and pattern inherited from the pigeon gene. And the white won't be the crisp white of the snow white, but more a greyish tint. Essentially it is trying to look like both, with neither quite succeeding.

    When we inbreed these discus, we will receive a dna sequence from each parent to the f2. The sequence will be either pigeon or snow white from each parent, quite randomly. Each sperm will be either a pigeon sperm or a snow white sperm, NOT a mixed sperm as many believe. The same goes for the egg, it is either a snow white egg, or a pigeon egg as the mother is both a pigeon and a snow white (remember she is heterozyous). She makes both types of eggs because she has both genes. We use a punnet square as a math tool for statistics, to calculate the results when sperm meets egg. In this case it will be 25% snow whites(homozygous), 25% pigeons (homozygous) and 50% will be just like the f1's (crossed looking heterozygous)

    In the case where your pigeon is heterozygous (unlike snow white, the heterozygous and homozygous pigeon look identical), this means it has both the pigeon dna sequence, and the wild type dna sequence (wild because that is what the pigeon mutated from) so when we cross with snow white you will receive all white/grey based babies as above, 50% will also be pigeon and 50 % will be wild based as well. They will all in likelihood look similar to each other. But when we breed the f2 many results are possible depending on the pair combination. In all cases snow white fry should be 25%, but there will be more crossed heterozygous individuals, some pigeon fry (both hetero and homo are possible depending on parent combination), and some brown/turk type fry as well, again depending on parent combination.

    Whew, i need a coffee after that. Hope that makes sense and helps you out. Could be a very exciting cross.

  11. #86
    Homesteader Eddie's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Excellent break down Rod! Very interesting read for everybody.

    Take care,

    Eddie
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Ok, I've got a funny mating. I was rearranging tank space and thought I'll just throw this one in with those for a few days until I decide what to do with it, guess what? A Blue PB male mated with a wild red Uatuma female. The fry are free swimming and feeding off the female. What are these fry going to look like?
    I haven't had any PB fry but I assumed they would be lighter colored fry. All the fry look the normal dark color, but they are just now free swimming. I would think that the wild genes would dominate over PB and the fry would somewhat resemble the female. I would also assume any PB now or future generations would be heavily peppered and pretty much worthless.
    Any comments on my assumptions or ideas on what else I might expect?

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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    One day later and the fry are much much lighter. After rereading this thread, it seems all fry will be PB.

  14. #89
    Registered Member Rod's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Quote Originally Posted by RLorts View Post
    One day later and the fry are much much lighter. After rereading this thread, it seems all fry will be PB.
    Yes most likely all pigeons, perhaps some brownish ones too depending on how the pigeon gene is carried. Not all pigeon crosses are heavily peppered, some are, some aren't.

    Good luck with the cross, sounds interesting

  15. #90
    Silver Member MostlyDiscus's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    I should send a picture of BSSxRing Lep. Sorry but Im too lazy to go down to the room right now. The babies are mixed. Some really kewl striped Blue turks. Some pure RLs. A RedSS. A really nice BSS. You really get a mix. I did cross a Albino with A tangerine. All came out PB As Rod Stated. I have green eyes and the Mrs. has brown. 3 kids have brown and one has green.


    Ed
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