Automated Bottom Cleaning: how to?

[scolley]

I'm a compulsive tinkerer that travels a good bit professionally, so I've become a big fan of tank automation. While I do enjoy puttering around my tank(s), I still do every thing within reason to set them up so that I don't have to. My aim is always low, very infrequent maintenance. But I've never had a bare bottom discus tank.

Until now.

So I've automated the water changes... that was easy. And most of the feedings will soon be with an auto-feeder. And I'm pretty sure there is going no getting around the periodic tank wipe down, and filter cleaning. That's OK. But the thing that's got me stumped is the frequent bottom cleanings. I'm not talking about a wipe down, just the regular removal of bottom detritus; uneaten food and poop.

Does anyone know a way to automate that stuff's removal?

And I don't mean "simplify". I've already experimented with siphon hoses and hand-held suction cleaners. I'm talking about automate... the process happening completely without human intervention.

I see several basic problems in trying to set something up.

1. Any kind of drain with an electronic valve to open/close will need to have a fairly large apature if it is going to create any kind of decent flow/suction on the bottom of the tank. Large apature solenoids are mucho expensivo. With the exception of lawn sprinkler solenoids, which I do not particularly trust.
   
2. Getting ALL the detritus (visible to the naked eye) would require a pretty strong flow. Or so it seems. And getting a really strong flow would likely require the assistance of something like a powerhead, which I would assume would have an impeller that would not particularly appreciate having chunks of garbage flowing through it.
   
3. If it's going to suck up detritus from the entire floor of the tank, then I'm curious what the out-flow manifold would look like.
   
4. And if it's going to be simplified by only sucking up stuff from one spot on the bottom of the tank (assuming all the detritus gathers in one location), then you've got a pretty strong current in the tank to create such conditions. And that current might interfere with normal discus eating habits.

So sorry for sounding negative. But there appear to be a number of obstacles to this. Maybe that's why I've not seen anything.

Does anyone know how to do this?

Thanks! And Happy Fourth for any Yanks out there!

[LizStreithorst]

This isn't miantence free, but it works. Take a Magnum HOB filter with the micron cartridge and stick a piece of 1/2" CPVC in the intake hole instead of the intake tube that it comes with. Stick an L on the end so that it touches the tank bottom. It will suck up the nasty stuff, but you'll have to change your cartriges pretty often. I learned this trick several years ago from DaveC.

[scolley]

Thanks Liz! I just happen to have a HOT Magnum laying around, so that's an easy solution. Potentially.

So you have done this? Do you put the Magnum's return in a drain? I would assume that you don't want to be recirculating that nasty water back into the tank. Is that correct?

PS - cleaning the filter every week or two is no big deal. I'm just trying to reduce the "once-to-many-times-a-day" stuff.

[LizStreithorst]

Thanks Liz! I just happen to have a HOT Magnum laying around, so that's an easy solution. Potentially.

So you have done this? Do you put the Magnum's return in a drain? I would assume that you don't want to be recirculating that nasty water back into the tank. Is that correct?

PS - cleaning the filter every week or two is no big deal. I'm just trying to reduce the "once-to-many-times-a-day" stuff.

I didn't put the return into the drain, but you could I guess if you figured a way to balance the intake with the out flow. Remember that as the debris accumulates in the micron filter the intake will slow. I expect you'll need to change the cartridge 3 times a week.

Remember that the cartridge is a Micron filter. It catches the smallest stuff. I know that the way I did it, there was probably some teeniny stuff recirculated into the water column, but that's why you have to change the micron filter often.

Yes I have done it myself, and it works. I don't do it that way any longer because I actually enjoy vacuuming poo and I have a real low tech irrigation system where my waste water (fertilizer water) goes directly to my roses.

[scolley]

I'll bet your roses love that Liz!

Actually I wasn't worried about visible stuff returning. I use that Magnum as a water polisher sometimes, and I knew nothing visible would get back. I was worried about the return of bacteriological content. But you guys have been doing this successfully, I guess that's not a concern.

But I'm only doing this on a tank with 5 2.5-3.0" fish. So I'm assuming it would take a while to clog that filter. Not inside a week anyway.

If so, that sounds like a good option. I am managing water level, so that's not an issue. So I could drain the return line. Or not - it sounds like from your experience.

So GREAT! This is indeed what I needed. Thank you!

Now I just gotta go get another Intermatic timer....

[Ed13]

Hmm, not that its easilly done or cheap but how about a zoo/aquarium like exhibit, with a trap to collect debris and the either pumped or vaccum manually or automatically. But a plywood, acrylic or concrete tank will be necessary.
Or maybe an airlift/powerhead setup to gather the particles then out by solenoid. I'm fairly certain than current properly set up will be usefull.

Honestly though, I've never been able to figured this part out. I trust you will Steve and let us know.

[scolley]

Hmm, not that its easilly done or cheap but how about a zoo/aquarium like exhibit, with a trap to collect debris and the either pumped or vaccum manually or automatically. But a plywood, acrylic or concrete tank will be necessary.
Or maybe an airlift/powerhead setup to gather the particles then out by solenoid. I'm fairly certain than current properly set up will be usefull.

Honestly though, I've never been able to figured this part out. I trust you will Steve and let us know.

Thanks Ed. I'm not sure what you mean by the exhibit type setup. I have seen traps though. And everyone I've seen is like a grate of some form in the bottom of the tank. Easy for stuff to fall through, but not too satisfying for fish that like to peck food off the bottom - when they can't get to it for the grate.

As for the solenoid, that gets back to the aperture size problem. My little 1/8" aperture solenoids to drain and fill my tank cost $50-60 apiece. But to get any real, cranking flow, this would need to be a large aperture solenoid, like these. If you were operating just on the pressure of the water in the tank to drive a pre-established siphon that was opened or closed by a solenoid, it would need to be big, like that 1" model. But that's too much money.

The 1/2" model might work, but not with a sipon alone - not enough water movement to really suck up debris. I've experimented with a 1/2" ID hose siphon, and it can only pull in stuff from a short distance from the end of the hose in the tank.

Now if you boosted the flow with a pumpt, that would work. But then you run into the problem of the impeller getting destroyed by the garbage flowing through it. Or maybe not. Hmmmm..... got to go look into that.

[LizStreithorst]

The crap gets sucked through the impeller of my pump every day. I don't think that it will be a problem.

[scolley]

Cool. But what about little semi-soft things like TCB or something?

I'm assuming little soft stuff like poop would just slide on through - as you say. With pump playing the roll of the goose in the old saying "like... through a goose".

Assuming the semi-softs (like wet TCB) would go through too, I still see a snag if you were draining it off. And that's that you would HAVE to use a large orifice (1/2" anyway) solenoid for it to work. 'Cuz as far as I know, in-line pumps all leak across the impeller. So without a solenoid to shut off the flow, it would act like a siphon, slowly draining your tank.

BTW - that's why I don't trust lawn solenoids, they aren't real reliable, and failure means a drained tank (or flooding tank!) in many applications.

[scolley]

So Liz - when you put that elbow from the Magnum down to the bottom of the tank, how far away does is suck stuff up from? Specifically, how close to the mouth of of the tube does the detritus have to be?

I didn't want to go upsetting my fish with me testing stuff, so ran a little test in a separate container - a 5 gallon Home Depot bucket. It's about the same height as my 29g tank. So the water pressure to any outflow at the bottom of the bucket should be about the same as my tank. I filled it up and spread TCB all over the bottom.

Then I got a big, cranking AM Oceanrunner 3500 (900 gph), with flexible PVC the sizes required by the pump (1" ID flowing in and 3/4" ID flowing out) and let it suck water out of the bucket, with the 1" hose on the bottom, or within 1/2" from it.

Water was RACING out of that bucket, obviously emptying it in about 20 seconds. But what disappointed me was that for most of the draining process, Tetra Color Bits were only pulled in from up to maybe 3" away. Tops. Clearly water was being pulled from above as easily as from the bottom. It was not until there was almost no water in the bucket, that everything in the bottom got sucked up - and quickly.

But if I let a tank get that low, so that everything on the bottom was getting sucked in... I'd have fish flopping around!

So, this leads me to the conclusion that unless you have some kind of manifold on the bottom of the tank, just sucking stuff up a with any single tube is only going to pull stuff in from a few inches away. And if that is going to work, you've got to have the flow of your tank set up so that things do indeed gather in one spot.

This should apply to a Magnum, Oceanrunner, whatever...

Please let me know if I'm off base on this conclusion. Thanks.




PS - The weather sucks here southeastern CT. That's why I've got time for this on the 4th. But soon I'm gonna be firing up the grill, tossing on some swordfish and veggies on the grill, popping the cork on a nice bottle of Sauvignon Blanc, and making a little dinner for my honey.

PPS - If you are reading this Al, I am NOT going to burn it. That's 'cuz the bottle is not going to get popped until AFTER the food goes on the grill. I seem to recall once when I got that formula turned around.

[LizStreithorst]

I put the Magnum on one end of the tank with the intake and the outflow pointed at the other end. The outflowdirected all the poop slowly to the intake. I've never done it by draining the outies stuff to a drain pipe. It may not work that way.

[phidelt85]

How about building a manifold along the bottom of the tank tied to the suction of a pump? If the discharge of the pump was above the height of the tank you shouldn't have to worry about a siphon, or install a solenoid-operated vacuum breaker on the suction side. Obviously, if you went this route you would need a self-priming pump.

[phidelt85]

To elaborate on the grid, I had seen somewhere where someone used 1/2" pVC and built a header with lateral lines. The ends were capped and then slots were cut along the pipe tangent to the bottom of the tank. I guess it would be like a reverse undergravel jet system minus the jets.

[scolley]

I put the Magnum on one end of the tank with the intake and the outflow pointed at the other end. The outflowdirected all the poop slowly to the intake. I've never done it by draining the outies stuff to a drain pipe. It may not work that way.

Oh, I see. Thanks....

When you turn on the Magnum it creates a flow that blow the stuff to where it need to be. Got it! If I put an outflow somewhere else I don't have that advantage.

How about building a manifold along the bottom of the tank tied to the suction of a pump? If the discharge of the pump was above the height of the tank you shouldn't have to worry about a siphon, or install a solenoid-operated vacuum breaker on the suction side. Obviously, if you went this route you would need a self-priming pump.

Good point. I'm happy with the manifold idea. I just don't know what it would look like.

I could go experimenting, but I'd be really happy to find out someone has already done that for me!

To elaborate on the grid, I had seen somewhere where someone used 1/2" pVC and built a header with lateral lines. The ends were capped and then slots were cut along the pipe tangent to the bottom of the tank. I guess it would be like a reverse undergravel jet system minus the jets.

Well, that's a manifold really - what you are describing.

That might work if constructed correctly, and your pump moved a lot of water quickly. I hate to think of what it would look like though... would be practical, but would definitely mess up the beauty of a BB tank.

Will have to go cogitate on this problem. Thanks.

[korbi_doc]

Guess it must be my age, but I don't get all this tech stuff, maybe not enough mind effort put into it, lol.....sure do wish y'all would get this system perfected tho....I'd give anything to have it work....I've not yet been able to even set up float valves for incoming, lol....however, I am planning to set one of my 55g tanks up with the undergravel jet system...that looks to me like it would at least cut the work & mess down a great degree....cichlidforum's Marc Elieson demonstrates it pretty nicely: going to use 3/4" pvc with 1/2" outlets & a mag drive pump...that's my next project...with my health & back problems, gotta cut down on work cuz it's not gettin' done, lol.....

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ug_jets.php

Dottie