Automated Bottom Cleaning: how to?

[Greg Richardson]

Steve. Not scrubbing it. Just sucking up poop, uneaten food, or anything else up. I don't have a schedule for scrubbing my tank walls and floor just do it when it looks like it's time. But if I could eliminate the poop cleaning time it be worth the money.

[scolley]

Cool! Sounds exactly like what I was hoping to do. Clean poop and uneaten food. That defines the problem. Now lemme go chew on that a while. Unless of course there are other solutions other there that anyone wants to offer up?

[disvegas]

I may have a simple solution for what you are looking for. It's diy, cheap and non fancy and requires minimum effort to setup. It works very well for me and improves my water quality/clarity by a large degree without the need to change water every few days with the setup. In fact, I now only do 50% wc & clean the filter once every 2 weeks or so and my water is still very clear/clean, so are my tanks. In the photos, there are pvc setup on the right of the tank with top/bottom open. Water is coming in from the left side of the tank and going out through the top/bottom pvc mouth, effectively carrying away almost all the leftover/feces in a slow pace. The water is then filtered out and polished by a combo of mesh, sponge and sand in a wet/dry system, also a diy unit. Any questions? pls ask.

[scolley]

Thanks disvegas! Do you keep it on all the time? Or just some of the time?

I ask because if it is on all of the time, it seems like it would interfere with the "grazing" form of lazy feeding off the bottom that discus engage in.

And either way, how often before you clean your filter?

I ask because this is - in many ways - this seems similar to the Magnum HOB solution Liz indicated initially - you are recirculating the water. Is that correct?

In my ideal solution I'd like to get the "crap" completely out of the loop. Are you?

Thanks for posting! Looking forward to the response.

[pete321]

Hi

Could you show us a pic of your filter set up?
Pete

[scolley]

Sure. I'll try to get one. Not sure how well it will show this though...

[Mick B]

Hi Scolley / All,

different systems which could be used;

1, Water taken out of the tank & cleaned then returned closed-loop with cannister or sump/system.

2, Water taken from one place in tank, cleaned/filtered and returned to another part of the tank, again closed loop (internal filter, or HOB etc).

3, Water taken from the tank and NOT returned (Water change)

The focus of all this is 'how clean'? are 10 visible chunks of poo, worse than 1000 micro non-visible chunks of poo?

Any system that re-cycles the cleaned water will still 'effectivly' contain the poo, just it's now stuck in the filter and not visible.
If this is OK (I use UG so OK by me etc) then it's only a question of increasing the filter capacity, to cope with the load, prior to the maintenance period being reached.
It can also be 'stopped' periodically (timers) while the fish graze etc (30 mins max IMO).

But I believe what you are looking for is a 'removal system'.

To that end, with my BB cubes, I notice the poo and food migrates to below the inlet of the constant filter (internal or bubble/sponge etc), so if the inlet to the filter were raised to say 3" from the bottom of the tank, the poo & food will migrate to that position, but still allow the Discus to graze.
(a tilted or 'V' shaped base plate may assist this).

Periodically, if a large internal power-head with the inlet piped to the spot, where the crud accumulates were used, a timer could fire-it-up for a few mins, sucking the accumulation out to drain (followed by auto-top-up etc).

If there is concern that the 'large P/head' impellor could foul, then a large-pore foam could be used as safety etc.

HTH, Cheers, Mick B

[pete321]

The way I understand things is this, Discus are sensitive to TDS(totally dissolved solids).After a water change the TDS value drops. This indicates to me that the pollution that has been removed contains high TDS while the new water has a lower TDS.
The longer between water changes, the higher the TDS reading will be.
No matter what bio filter system you have this still seems to apply. The more efficient your bio filter the slower this might happen???????

Now the way that I see filtering should happen is the solids need to be totall removed from the system before they dissolve!!!!!
I don't like sieves or mesh or sponge for this as this just provides a surface for the solids to stick to with water flowing through and this then aides in dissolving the solids. I think that is might even aggravate the situation.
The dissolved solids could maybe chemically neutralized by oxidation by using ozone or maybe even potassium permanent. (this is just my theory. I have not tested this yet and even is it works, it might do more harm to the fish that benefit the fish may gain from a lower TDS reading)

MY solution is to have a settling area outside the tank(sump) where the water is circulated and allowed to flow very slowly for a minimum distance??? to allow the solids to settle out. This then needs to be flushed regularly to remove the solids from the system. A similar system is used on koi ponds.

[scolley]

Wow. This is great feedback. Thanks!

But I think it raises a fundamental question...

What is the objective of bottom cleaning?

If it is removal of biological material to minimize biological/bacteriological process from the food and excrement, then any system that filters but recirculates water appears suboptimal.

But if it is TDS removal, then such systems might work fine. Keep in mind, RO'DI is just a filtration system. And if the aim is merely TDS reduction, then some filtration system that deals with the muck on the bottom should be able to be devised without resorting to actually removing the detrus from the filtration loop as I was originally intending.

Can someone please speak - authoritatively - about the objective of regular bottom cleaning?

Is it TDS reduction, biological material removal, both, or something else? Thanks.

[pete321]

In this case, TDS and bio waste is the same. This is because you have already removed mineral TDS by RO before the water enters the tank. So any increase in TDS can only be from the bio waste breaking down. If you can remove the bio waste before it breaks down then you can slow the rate that the TDS reading rises.

[scolley]

In this case, TDS and bio waste is the same.

I understand that the end effect is the same in this case - remove the waste, and both TDS and bio-contimination are both reduced. That was self-evident, right?

That doesn't change the basic question... do we do this to reduce TDS, bio-waste, both, or something else? And the reason why that question is so important is because...


If the goal is to reduce TDS...

Then fairly standard filtration might be able to take care of that.

If the goal is to reduce bio-contamination (or TDS and bio-contamination)...

Then it becomes a tougher problem - possibly requiring removal of the waste from the filtration loop completely.

And who knows what's required if it is something else? So - to repeat - can someone please speak authoritatively about the objective of regular bottom cleaning?

[GrillMaster]

Or you could just go BB and do a 50% WC everyday... Sorry Steve...Couldn't resist...

[yim11]

Steve,

While I can't speak authoritatively about the objective of regular bottom cleaning, I would like to propose a possible solution.

I think the old diatom filters (http://www.diatomfilter.com/index.htm) we used to use at the pet store MANY years ago would work if combined with ideas from Mick B - "I notice the poo and food migrates to below the inlet of the constant filter (internal or bubble/sponge etc), so if the inlet to the filter were raised to say 3" from the bottom of the tank, the poo & food will migrate to that position, but still allow the Discus to graze." and disvegas comments.

A really strong filter (like the diatom) run for a few minutes around a area known to collect debris might work. The extra filter strength would also help remove debris not close to the known collection area.

My though is something along the lines of a 4-6" concave plastic disk (kind of a really big contact lens) about 1/4" or less off the bottom of the tank, maybe a plastic disk attached to the bottom of a sponge filter, located at the main/known debris collection area, connected to the high power filter intake at the top/middle of the disk. This filter would be run for only a few minutes a day so would limit the amount of tank water returned.

I think the high power of the filter combined with the disk shape and low height from bottom would help to draw most other debris from the tank. Locating the filter in the middle of the tank would probably have the best results, but of course - all this is concept.

The drawback is the high power filter would need to have the media cleaned on a regular basis. I think daily would be required if there was waste sitting in the filter for over 20 hours (assuming run once per day). So I'm not sure if you really solve the core problem but it might be a start to a total solution.

Just my $0.02...
-jim

[scolley]

I think the old diatom filters (http://www.diatomfilter.com/index.htm) we used to use at the pet store MANY years ago would work if combined with ideas from Mick B... and disvegas comments.

A really strong filter (like the diatom) run for a few minutes around a area known to collect debris might work. The extra filter strength would also help remove debris not close to the known collection area.

Thanks Jim. And sorry for the delayed response.

This is an interesting idea. Though you did not say it directly, I'm assuming that you are suggesting a diatom filter because it has the ability to remover biological pathogens from the water. Good idea in that regard. But as you indicated, all the maintenance it seems to require defeats the purpose IMO.

The very first suggestion by Liz - one that apparently seems to work for multiple people - still seems like a good solution. But until I can get confirmation on the actual purpose of bottom cleaning is removing the solids, and not eliminating the biologically reactive material, I can't know if that is an ideal solution. But maybe I'm off course here...

Can a Magnum micron cartridge (8 micron pores) filter bacteria out of the water? If so that original suggestion could be close to ideal. Liz indicated that you could wait several days to replace (or clean) the media.

My though is something along the lines of a 4-6" concave plastic disk (kind of a really big contact lens) about 1/4" or less off the bottom of the tank, maybe a plastic disk attached to the bottom of a sponge filter, located at the main/known debris collection area, connected to the high power filter intake at the top/middle of the disk. This filter would be run for only a few minutes a day so would limit the amount of tank water returned.

I think the high power of the filter combined with the disk shape and low height from bottom would help to draw most other debris from the tank. Locating the filter in the middle of the tank would probably have the best results, but of course - all this is concept.

That's a good idea! I'm not sure about the sponge filter part, but the concave disk idea seems solid!

Thanks Jim.

[broken poles]

Hi everyone, please forgive the late response but I just joined.This is a great forum! What if Disvegas's system was run to a drain instead of a filter? I run a 180 gal. With a wet/dry and a 30 with an aquaclear hang on and I have them both hooked to a semi automatic water change system. All I have to do is flip a switch to change water in both tanks via overflow/powerheads with aged rodi water. This could easily be on a timer. It goes to a drain in the laundry room. It seems that many people here do a large w/c daily so if the flow was directed along the bottom at a strong enough flow via some sort of manifold would Disvegas's idea not work? The poo would be gone and the water is changed at the same time.the only problem might be getting the overflow to flow fast enough to keep up with the current necessary to move the poo in a short time. Just my thoughts. Shane