Heckels bred on a commercial scale?

[yogi]

Heckel discus to heckel discus have been tank bred, but probably not on the commercial scale like some of you are thinking or wishing for. As far as heckel crosses go that is quite easy to do in your tank. Jusy look at this old thread I posted.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=56296 The first thing you have to do to make these crosses is mix your heckels with some blues and browns.

The demand for wild discus is much smaller than most of you think. And the demand for wild heckels is even smaller than that. I will be generous with these numbers. Simply has 12,000 members so maybe 10 percent visit on a regular basis. So that's 1,200 and maybe another 1,200 to 1,500 guests who have never registered. And out of that maybe 10 percent even visit this wild discus section because all the others are interested in domestic discus. And out of that small number there are a handful of people who are even interested in heckels and then some of them want them only if they are f1's. So now you see how small the demand is.

So why should someone go to the trouble to breed them on a commercial scale when the wild heckels are plentiful and cheap.

[ShinShin]

Please tell us Larry about all the beautiful wild tank displays in lfs's in Eastern Washington. Do you think that its only in Western Washington that reef tanks and African Cichlid tanks outnumber discus tanks? Go to Philly, go to NYC, go to Chicago and you'll see the same.

I am not talking observations here. I saw the discus. I corresponded with the Asian breeder, and I personally spoke with the Asian discus importer who sold these fish many times on the phone. Unlike your opinions (and we all know the old saying about opinions, don't we?), my posts are from actual real events. Some call this reality. For Christ's sake, Degen shows pics in his books and how long ago has that been. If he did it in Germany, why couldn't the Asians do it?

If there were a market for tank raised Heckels, the Asians would still be producing them. They did, and there was no money in it. They stopped. I think yogi put reality of Heckel discus demand into its true perspective. The fact is, they are usually the cheapest wild discus to be found.

Look back at a not too old an issue of FAMA, Tony Silva gives the name of a Malaysian breeder currently breeding Heckels. I have already recycled that issue, or I would give you the name myself.

Mat

[Tad]

Heckels are being and have been being bred in Asia for years. I don't care what Larry, Heiko, or anyone else says. I have PERSONALLY seen a tankful of Asian bred Heckels in Portland, Oregon at an importer's house. Ray Kosaka sold Asain bred Heckels 10 years ago. Dennis Hardenburg bought some of these Heckels and spawned them and shared his experience right here on Simply. Yeng has pics in his 2nd book of them, and told me in personal correspondences that the reason no one is breeding them in large scale is that there is no market for them. It is a small group of people who would buy them, and it is not economically feasable to produce them. Most are being used by Asian breeders to cross breed, looking for new starins of domestic hybrids. One of the sponsors here offered them for sale not long ago. Not everyone likes Heckels. They find the 5th bar obtrusive, and are, quite frankly, the ugly "disckling" of the discus family. There is a store here in the Pacific Northwest that still has wild Heckels in their tanks from last season.

There was an article in FAMA a few volumes back that gave the name of a breeder who is currently producing them right now.

Mat

good post Mat,

Do you know if they were pond raised or in tanks? Also if in ponds, are they also raising other wilds like Rsg's ?

regards and Happy Thanksgiving,
Tad

[Eddie]

Hey Yogi, very nice mix...they turned out very nice


Eddie

[illumnae]

Hi guys,

I cannot believe some of the guys here claiming that Heckel discus are breed in Asian (that is Symphysodon discus x Symphysodon discus).

I just came back a couple of days ago from AQUA FAIR 2008 in Kuala Lumpur where I judged 260 discus; before that I judged the discus at the AQUARIA 2008 in Shanghai, before that I visited breeders in China and Hong Kong as well as Singapore and India, all this after the 7th international Discus Championships in Germany at the begin of October 2008 where half of the 360 discus in competition came from Asia. And none, in no place mentioned, has breed Heckel discus, only some few Heckel cross here and there. NO ONE in Asia has EVER breed Heckel discus, 99% of all Asian do not even know what a Heckel discus looks like and very few, if any have ever seen a wild discus (except for Japan, that is a different story but also there NO ONE ever breed a Heckel discus and they know very well all wilds).

So people can say what they want, but what goes on in Asia I know very well as I have seen it durng the last 4 decades traveling all the time there with my eyes, almost every year around Asia and no one has every done it there. In my upcoming volume II of Bleher's Discus I will also show that no one has ever breed Heckel discus in Asia, as I have for my book almost every Asian discus breeder interviewed. And one can see that some breeder who thought that they had breed Heckel discus were just a cross...

I have nothing more to ad to it, people can say what they want, but I only believe what I see.

All the best,

Heiko Bleher
www.aquapress-bleher.com
www.aqua-aquapress.com

I take issue with the statement that 99% of all Asians do not know what a Heckel looks like. Lots of Asians do know what heckels are and what they look like :P No less than americans, europeans or australians.

[Eddie]

I agree illumnae, very ignorant and completely out of order. There are those who don't care about how others see them and then there are those who feel they are gods. I definitely hate people with inferiority complexes.

[kirkp]

This topic got me to searching the net and came upon this website. Something looks a little off so may be more of a heckel cross?

Kirk

http://www.jitls.com/soft.asp?id=54

[brewmaster15]

I'd like to ask everyone to please be respectful of others Views,Opinions and concerns here....This is a Discussion board...so lets Discuss...but do so in a civil and respectful fashion.

I'd also like to redirect this issue of whether Heckels are being Commercially bred....

It seems we have two main mindsets here...

• One Mindset says Heckels pose a great challenge in Breeding..... as someone working with several tanks of them and having a bit of experience at breeding domestics and wilds... I have to say.....I can certainly appreciate that.. If I succeed in my goals...I will consider it my greatest Fish breeding success to date.
• The Other mindset thinks that its not that they are that difficult, its that theres no "Real" market for them.. That may be true also... Of all the wilds that come in when in season, your common heckels are both abundant and relatively inexpensive... so there may not be as much a market from a profit driven view... Being an owner of this forum has put me in contact with many hobbyists and breeders and I have spoken with many over the years that honestly don't like Heckels..Often I am asked what I see in these lightly colored and glaringly barred fish.. I have a hard time validating Heckels to them as they just don't see them as I do.. If you look at most domestic strains...the moevemnt has been towards no bars...not bars..

So here we are...I guess most fall in one mindset or the other..but I think if we step back and look at each perspective...we can see the point well enough to at least recognize the validity and not try to marginalize opposing views that may still be relative and pertinent to the big picture of Heckels and Discus Nuts.


As for me.. I am sure that Heckels X heckel have been done somewhere though I haven't seen it in my small slice of the world...Is it common...probably not as common as any of the other Discus strains both wild and domestic....Though to tell you the truth theres not a heck of a lot of interest in breeding any wilds commercially relative to Domestics, regardless of what the small minority of us that like wilds want to believe...... Why I think it has been done is because in the wild we have species that take years to decades to mature and breed...they have very slow lifecycles and their populations seldom are very large relative to species with high reproduction rates and rapid turn over in over populations..... From this biologists point of view...Heckels just don't seem to fall into that category...every years theres many many heckels ranging in size from 3" to 6" that are collected for market and sold inexpensively(a marker of sorts as to population size)...This fish doesn't appear to have a barrier to easy reproduction... The problem is we have either a shortage of knowledge as to its needs incaptivity or theres not enough reason for commercial breeding to be focused on heckels...I do believe that these are both true...as I know far too many skilled commercial breeders that could easily crack the code as to what Heckels need if there was enough motive in it.

As for me...I'll keep trying and hopefully be able to settle the question at least to my own satisfaction....and wish all of you the same.

Thanks,
al

[illumnae]

Well said al

[plecocicho]

Those discus in pics are crosses between heckel and blue discus, there is no doubt. Interesting that heckels , which are most difuucult to keep are usally really the cheapest wild discus species/variety, isnt it? Oh and most asian breeders and keepers (japan excluded) are far more interested in hybrid discus than wilds. In Europe, i think a lot of people would keep wilds, if only they would be cheaper and not so diffucult to keep.Although experienced wild discus keepers told me, that when the critical three month period is over, wilds are more robust than hybrids, because they have more general fitness compared to hybrids. Hybrids are developed from interbreeding due to preserve certain features, so they are more proned to diseases.

[plecocicho]

I agree with you Al, but you most know, that in Europe strains that have bars are more popular than those who have lost it.

[brewmaster15]

I agree with you Al, but you most know, that in Europe strains that have bars are more popular than those who have lost it.

I'm sorry, but I don't see that.. PBs, Mellons, Bds, Albinos, Fine line snakeskins, Cobalt blues...RSGs and Leos all are pretty much without Bars as adults.... and from what I have seen in any of the competitions photos...Bars are not that common.

The exception is probably Domestically Raised Alenquers ....and possibly Red turqs...and even these Turqs have been so inbred that they rarely exhibit Their bars compared to wild types... ..

hth,
al

[Apistomaster]

I thought I made it perfectly clear that wild discus lovers are a small subset of discus keepers and those who find Heckels fascinating form an even smaller subset of the wild discus keeping contingent. I have been clear about the fact that fancy domestics will always dominate the overall discus market.
That said, there are still plenty of us around the world who prefer the wild type discus just as we who really prefer the original wild tpe angels and other fish for which more tank raised forms are the most popular. I am not trying to turn those who like domestic more than wilds into converts. My posts are mainly aimed at other like minded aquarists who are keeping or want to keep wilds. I try to share what I know so it may make there experiences with wilds a little easier. There are many differences between wilds and domestics that present challenges from the wilds we like to rise to that are not present among the domestics. I have already said that wild types are not everyone cup of tea so it isn't like I'm fomenting some kind of revolution against domestic hybrids. I do try to share my experiences with wild discus with those who are trying them so they may be spared some of the set backs that I have learned by through experience and trial and error.
The only real point of contention is between those who believe Heckels are being bred more often than the rest of us perceive. Anecdotal testimony is no use to use and proof in the form of living examples of pure bred tank raised Heckels is nonexistent in the present world wide market. Breeding them represents a challenge to advanced aquarists. The issue isn't one of economic viability. If you want to make any money from raising discus you will have to stick with domestic hybrid discus. That does not mean there are not those out there who would be pleased to buy any of the few f1 fish we can manage to produce from our wild discus. Wild caught Heckels are often available at reasonable prices but the pride of successfully breeding them is what it is about. They are another fish that tests our abilities and these are the kinds of things that motivate many fish keepers and breeders.

If you don't like wild discus and find Heckels particularly undesirable, then why on earth would you be concerned by the challenges that those of us who do like wild discus set before us?


Despite the lower population density in Eastern Washington State compared to the West side of the Cascades, there are more discus being carried in the fewer shops here than in the shops around Puget Sound. Discus are never going to be more popular than the easily kept and bred colorful African Cichlids but their fans are not representative of the typical simplydiscus member who's interest in discus is why they like this forum.

[ShinShin]

What a lod of crap, Larry. Over the few years you've been here, you have gone from Heckels aren't being bred period, Heckel to Heckel or hybridized. Finally, you must have seen enough pictures to realize that Heckels are commonly bred with wild brown/blue discus and domestics. Now, you've been backed into a corner and its pure Heckels. All that is coming out of you is denial, probabally from your own lack of success over these many years of trying. I will also bet, and you will also deny, that you attempted to cross the Heckels you have with your domestic red turquois discus and failed.

There are two people here (at least) that have bred Heckel to Heckel - Alberto and Ken. Ken had F1 Heckels up for bid on Aquabid. They were so popular, that his one spawn had to be run through the bidding more than once, if I recall correctly. That is tongue in cheek. If the demand would be so high for tank raised F1's, why wasn't the entire spawn purchased immediately?

Just because the Heckel is the great white whale that eludes you, doesn't mean someone else hasn't achieved success. As for as your eltism that exudes from every post you make, understand that this forum isn't the forum where you can post that you were the first one to breed wild discus, and everyone here will believe it. One doesn't have to be obsessed with Heckels to be interested. As far as your advanced skills as a discus keeper, you have achieved nothing more than alot of the people here, and less than some, and as for your statement about the special requirements for raising wild discus, if you raise any domestic discus the way they ought to be raised, wild discus are absolutely no problem, and may in fact be easier than some domestics.

Mat

Hi Tad,

How are you? I don't know about the tanks or ponds question.

[CliffsDiscus]

My Heckels Spawned, much easier than expected www.maniadiscus.com

Cliff