Dietary and genetic influence on discus color

[scolley]

I've been trying to learn what foods that are fed to discus influence their color, and which foods promote what particular colors, in which type of fish. Is the adult color a combination of genetics and diet? And if so, what do I need to know to influence that?

While this particular thread may (or may not) wind up being sticky-worthy from the answers it attracts, someone one, somewhere, is going to create a guide to helping people understand the relationship between diet/genetics/color that will attract many, many interested people from all over the world...

So, how do you get a blue discus? Or a red? Or yellow? White... etc. ?

This is your chance to help us all to understand...

What diet, and what genetics, will produce a discus that upon maturity will clearly be regarded as a discus of XXXX color?

In your response, please substitute XXXX with the color you are going to help us understand how to both achieve and maintain over time.

Thanks.

[Eddie]

Hey Steve, sounds like a great thread.

IMO, I don't believe dietary should have any influence on a certain strain. It does though, in some red fish but I am not about having a strain that relies on what I feed my fish. Genetics has the greatest influence on any strain and they are pretty much set with some slight variations but every now and then someone breaks out with a new strain that gets controlled and even then, there will be small differences in each fish. JMO

Eddie

[scolley]

IMO, I don't believe dietary should have any influence on a certain strain.

Well Eddie, I for one have very little authoritative information on this topic - but a great deal of curiosity! For example...

I've got some juvenile 3R2's, basically orange/red fish. But they have adopted differing dietary habits. Specifically... some of them have been taking the TCB (Tetra Color Bits) I've been feeding them, and some ignore them. And without question, those this eat the TCB are orange, or even red, while those 3R2's that ignore that food source are very pale orange.

My tank is a mix of discus genetics. The same tank with the 3R2's has got some red turq's also. And while they all possess the characteristic bright blue coloration, they are not wholly blue - but possessing red highlights. Yet these fish scarf up the TCB too. But they haven't turned purple (a reddish form of blue). They are as blue as blue can be. Their highlights may be more red because of the TCB in their diet. But with no control fish to compare them too, honestly I can't say.

But I know for a fact, that the TCB consumed makes a world of difference in the color saturation (degree of orange/red) in the 3R2's. Those that eat it are orange to red. Those that don't are pale orange.

On top of this, I've recently taken receipt of some "Snow Whites", or "White Diamonds" as they are sometimes known. And while they are - no doubt - very white now, I've received some pretty clear (and apparently well informed) cautions about what I can feed them, or their white color will be a fleeting thing.

I'm hoping that this thread will clear up both:

1. What foods tend to drive fish toward which colors
   - and -
2. Which strains are know to be influenced (or not) by certain foods, and if so, specifically how.

Should be interesting!

[Eddie]

Right Steve, that was my point. Diet should not have any affect but it does. Take 2 groups of discus from the same spawn. Feed one group only worms and the other on Tetrabits. It would be obvious the extreme color difference in one group than another, but those 2 groups are the same strain, just fed differently. Different foods created to enhance the color of fish are the key. They work, most definitely. As in my own Discus. I started feeding them ON Prime Reef over a month ago and all the fish have a more redish color to them, even my heckel. The heckels small red streaks are even more pronounced. I guess what matter is everyone's goal for their fish. My goal is put size on my Discus so I feed them seafood, and beefheart mix. I also supplement with the Prime Reef flake but as they get older, I will feed them more Tetrabits and PR flake for ease of cleaning and to fully have their colors come out.

Eddie

PS If you can get your 3R2s to eat Prime Reef, they will be phenomanally red without any doubt!

[seanyuki]

Hi Steve,

I prefer to keep each strain in their own tank.

Red fish are fed with beefheart and mix Naturose Astaxanthan Powder and flakes food to enhance the redness of the fish.....when Blue Diamond are fed with Astax and would turn the color more purple than blue so I feed them with SPIRULINA flakes food........Astax is also good for spotted fish to get spotted at an early age.....just my two cents.

Cheers
Francis

[brewmaster15]

Hi Steve,
Complicated topic... MY Simplified viewpoint here.....Diet is extremely important for the formation of the color red and orange in Discus... Discus and most fish in general can not synthesis the pigments for Red...whatever red pigments they exhibit is a function of the types of pigments they ingest.... The extent that these pigments are utilized by the fish is genetic and its largely affected by hormones... Hormones in a maturing fish control the secondary sex traits like color display.....

So here you have..... fish ingest color pigments...Genetics gives the fish capacity to store the pigments in the appropriate inter-cellular areas (called chromatophores) and hormones affect the extent this is done, and the speed that it occurs.

Some colors are not derrived from pigments but irridescence and light..


In reality theres not any mystery to discus coloration...it works on the same basic principals that many other living things do...They are just limited in many ways to displaying pigments that they have ingested.

If you read up on Chromatophores and pigments it'll help in the understanding..

For starters...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromatophore

and of particular interest to the reds in discus...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carotenoid
These are really what we are giving to affect the orange and red color when we give nutrurose pigments, astaxanthins(algae pigment),Carophyll pink(synthetic algae pigment) Krill( they ingest pigments and are a source of bio-availible to fish), Spirullina (though a green algae>>>high in orange carotenoids), paprika, etc...


hth,
al

[scolley]

Al thanks. That helps some. But frankly I was hoping someone could come up with something much more simple. I have no interest in the "why". I'm not a biologist, or chemist, and I'll struggle to understand it. It's complex and requires a lot of very specific knowledge to understand.

Instead I was hoping for someone to explain the very simple "what". Like...

This food, that food, and the other food all promote XYZ color.
That fourth food and the fifth food promote ABC color.
And that special chemical MNO, when introduced into discus diet promotes 123 color.

And among discus that can have their color significantly influenced...
ABC strain must have their color produced by food.
DEF strain is the same, but to a lesser extent.
And GHI strain will not be affected at all by dietary pigment, except around the ... parts of their bodies/fins.

The "why" is cool for people that can follow it. But just having simple rules of thumb on the "what" would be very helpful. You started it in fact by stating that red fish get all their red from their diet, and even mentioned some foods that promote it.

Thanks.

[brewmaster15]

Okay then,
Since I am on a roll here Steve,, If you want to know what to feed something like a Yellow or white fish that won't color it or taint it Red or orange....avoid any foods with those pigments I mentioned in it!

and thats where the hard part is...as almost all foods we feed have spirulina or krill or red pigments added... .. however... one could feed food spiked with a yellow pigment...called carophyll yellow to max out the yellows...again along the same lines as before... The genetics govern what the fish can use and hormones influence when the colors are stored and displayed.

I know you mentioned that you aren't really looking for the whys in all this...but its hard to get around the whys because most foods have a mix of natural pigments and added ones and the whys help explain how to find the right food for what you are looking to do....

.... heres an example..

Take ocean nutrition formula one pellets..
color enhancing pigments as follows...

Shrimp meal and plankton....contribute red and orange pigments even though it doesn' say it on the label.
spirulina algae....orange pigments even though it doesn't say it on the label
carotenoid pigments ( astaxanthin and canthaxanthin) red and orange because thats what those pigments do in a fish.

so for me...If I want a pelleted food thats going to affect the reds and oranges.... this one is good for that .....


hth,
al

[scolley]

Cool! This is hard only because you know so much Al! For the ignorant like me, this is starting to look simple, uncomplicated by the burden of all that knowledge...

Foods that color fish are:
1) any food with shrimp meal and/or plankton - they contribute red and orange
2) any food with spirulina algae - that contributes orange pigment
3) any food (or additive) with carotenoid pigments (astaxanthin and canthaxanthin) - those contribute red and orange pigment respectively

Discus strains that are most affected by such foods are:
1) White fish
2) Yellow fish
3) Red fish

How's that? And how should that be added to/modified?

[rfeiller]

the trick is to balance the color food with the health of the discus, for the color you want to enhance.

[ShinShin]

Yeng (Penang Discus, 2nd edition, pg. 71) claims Blood and Sea Cockles added to a mix enhance yellow and gold coloration if fed excessively.

Mat

[scolley]

Yeng (Penang Discus, 2nd edition, pg. 71) claims Blood and Sea Cockles added to a mix enhance yellow and gold coloration if fed excessively.

Mat

Thanks Mat! That's exactly the kind of info I'm looking for!

[Ed13]

I've heard that oatmeal as well as fish oil help with blue colors. So I'm adding them to the seafood mix I'm doing, except for other reasons since my new discus are red lol

[Eddie]

I've heard that oatmeal as well as fish oil help with blue colors. So I'm adding them to the seafood mix I'm doing, except for other reasons since my new discus are red lol

Thats great Ed, been adding oatmeal to my tuna mix so hopefully that will blow up the blues in my young BDs.

Eddie

[seanyuki]

Hi Ed,

Love to see your new red fish....any tips to your secret seafood mix.

Cheers
Francis

I've heard that oatmeal as well as fish oil help with blue colors. So I'm adding them to the seafood mix I'm doing, except for other reasons since my new discus are red lol