Is my planted tank ok for Heckel?

[bearnuc]

Just a quick update
all 10 Heckels are doing well, been feeding on FBW for the time being. Some had cloudy eyes which had been cured by now from regular water change. No clamp fins though most of them showed sign of aggression towards one another, pretty active i would say.

Anyone came across the relationship between fish colors and aggression? though i have taken out Black Background and only left with dark substrate. Heckels still showed pretty dark pattern (not black and slimey). Wonder if it's light substrate they would show less aggression towards each other since most fishes gets darker and color get more intense when they are aggressive. In this case, dark substate made them dark and not themselves being aggressive..


My growout tank would b arriving this saturday (16/01)
I'm still debating whether to go BB or using sand substrate. I'm not a fan of BB tank at all. Personally i believe that the more the tank imitate nature, the less stressful fishes are.

[Apistomaster]

Since your Heckels showed signs of prolonged malnutrition and disease an early indicator of which fish will recover is which of the thin ones are noticeably fuller after eating. If you can't see any bulge in their bellies then they are still not yet eating enough or parasites are hampering the assimilation of nutritients.

There is no behavioral difference between Heckels over light colored or dark color substrate assuming they are all in equally good health.

It is not a problem to use a thin layer of fine white sand. Just use barely enough to cover the bare bottom glass. I add some pieces of wood branches and perhaps a potted Amazon Sword Plant. I too dislike an entirely bare tank and believe wild discus are able to adjust to aquarium life better when given some basic elements of a natural setting. A few floating plants are also appreciated by them. The 3 medications I recommended before may be used without harming the plants or biological filter.

[erikc]

The aggresion is due to the fact that the pecking order has not been established yet. This takes time and slowly you will see a dominant fish taking first place in the group (if you are lucky it might be a male and a female defending a territory, but I think we'll leave that until later).

It's true that a bare bottom tank will make your heckel's more skittish, I always prefer covering it up.

Plants and wood have to be carefully planned so as not to offer complete hiding places, other wise you will never see your fish.

But you should really start treating them as soon as possible ....

[Knot~]

Hi P'Bear

How's ur heckel now ? mine is healthy and greedy.

just to let u know mine is in the bared buttom the color was so nice, will show u the pic later.

[bearnuc]

sorry, i haven't updated this thread.
Heckels are in somewhat proper place now.

[erikc]

Well done, I think that the it's time now to concentrate on the feeding regime and to wait for their colours to show up !!

The overhead light seems a bit strong so some floating plants will be welcome, but the overall layout is axactly what is needed. I really like the plants on the wood. Hmmm ... gives me a few ideas.

I am honestly pleased for you and your heckels, you are not going to regret this now. Keep up the good work and keep posting !

[bearnuc]

i hardly turned on those light so heckels r living in a dimmed environment those plants and bogwood r temporary as im waiting for another bogwood set to sink. I am currently having a problem trying to teach them how to take dried food. Each feeding i would put in 2-3 sinking pallets and heckels won't tounch it till it's very soft and broke apart. Those got swept to this collection area where it's one of the heckel's guarded territory and that's the only heckel that was grazing on the sinking bits. Any suggestion on this problem? i don't dare to turn off my filter as oxygen might be depleted ( and i might forget to turn it back on which would caused a big lost)

[erikc]

Since you don't have any other heckels (from another tank) that are used to eating dried food ther are a few other options available :

- You will be needing a cleanup crew eventually, what I recomend is a small shoal of corydoras catfish (6 or 7). they will willingly go for any food and the heckels will eventually go for it. they will make a good addition to the tank and eat any leftovers.

-If you feed them frozen BW, defrost them in a small bowl or cup and add a pinch of the dried food with it. Pour the contents into the tank, the heckels should automatically go for the BW and will eat some of the dreid food.

It will take time fand patientce for them to get the association dried food = food. But if you combine the two above you should be able to make the transition.

I honestly don't recomend starving them since heckels are really some of the most stubborn fish I have ever had and they will not take to it too well. They've have had a hard time and what the need most is food, so just stick to what they prefer at the moment and gradually change their diet.

[yashaswibs]

You have some great looking Heckels. I have some questions that will help me.
1. How long were they in the planted tank?
2. Did they show any signs of improvement in that tank itself?
3. How long have you had them in Bare bottom tank?
4. Do you have a water change regimen, if so how much/how often?
5. What is your level of expertise in keeping discus in general and Heckel in particular?
6. I did not see a TDS value or I might have overlooked?
7. Did you add any Praziquantel/Albendazole/Fembendazole- if so what is the rationale behind it- none of the above drugs have any transcutaneous absorption and dissolution in water would dilute it enough that mean inhibitory concentrations probably will not be reached. Metronidazole does liquify but the same holds true for it too.

I am planning on doing exactly what you have done- keeping Heckels in heavily planted tank and I am not sure if it is such a good idea but I would love to try it.

Your post is a learning experience for me.
Thanks.

[Disgirl]

grazing on the sinking bits.

Beautiful, simple and clean tank! Just soak the pellets in a cup of tank water for a few minutes until they are soft, then pour them into the tank in several areas so all fish have a chance to eat them.
Barb

[Eddie]

Tank and Heckels look fabulous! Can't wait to see them in the future. Please keep us updated on them.


Take care!

Eddie

[Apistomaster]

I don't post much anymore but I had to comment about the antihelminthics and anti-flagellates used to treat wild tropical fish.
As one with a good deal of experience before and after the advent of the use of these drugs on fish I can say there is a good deal of empirical evidence and a lot of saved money that made me a believer. The mechanisms by which these drugs are transported inside fish to reach therapeutically useful levels is not clear to me either due to their poor solubility characteristics but somehow it happens.
I have seen greatly reduced losses among the small and expensive pleco species I keep and breed ever since I adopted the routine use of a combination of praziquantel, flubendazole and metroniadzole. Before I used them, when I would by 10 or 12 specimens for breeding of newly imported fish I frequently had massive losses.
I bought 10 wild Hypancistrus zebra last summer and everyone is still thriving. They cost more than any discus. That is just one example but is typical of my results nowadays.
These drugs seem to be effective at a wide range of concentrations and apparently innocuous to fish so they they present no risk and you have everything to gain.
It seems that even if the drugs are merely in suspension that the fish are able to ingest them in sufficient amounts to be useful and if the fish will eat medicated food then so much the better.
I have used this particular drug combination on a group of 10 small Heckels which I sold last year after having them more than 4 years and I used them on my 6 wild Alenquer Discus which are coming up on year 2 in my tanks.
These various parasites are almost certainly not completely eliminated by even semiannual treatments but I don't think it is unreasonable to do so. It bothers the parasites a heck of lot more than the parasites bother the fish.
You all can do what you want with your wild discus but I have seen such a difference between the days before and since their use that I am never going back to not using them.

I forgot to mention that unlike antibacterial drugs these other classes of drugs don't seem to have any negative effects on plants and biological filters which is a big plus. Unfortunately the drugs do not work on Ich or finrot types of disesaes but that would be asking too much.

[yashaswibs]

Thank you for your detailed reply to the antiparasitic medication question.

I appreciate you sharing your experience with these fishes and so we do not have to go through the same teething troubles that you did.
I do have some hypothesis on why it works but suffice it to say that it does and so should be used.

Thanks again.

[bearnuc]

Since you don't have any other heckels (from another tank) that are used to eating dried food ther are a few other options available :

- You will be needing a cleanup crew eventually, what I recomend is a small shoal of corydoras catfish (6 or 7). they will willingly go for any food and the heckels will eventually go for it. they will make a good addition to the tank and eat any leftovers.

-If you feed them frozen BW, defrost them in a small bowl or cup and add a pinch of the dried food with it. Pour the contents into the tank, the heckels should automatically go for the BW and will eat some of the dreid food.

It will take time fand patientce for them to get the association dried food = food. But if you combine the two above you should be able to make the transition.

I honestly don't recomend starving them since heckels are really some of the most stubborn fish I have ever had and they will not take to it too well. They've have had a hard time and what the need most is food, so just stick to what they prefer at the moment and gradually change their diet.

Once i've trained these babies to take various food other than FBW, i'll be adding some C.Astropersonatus. In the mean time, my heckels are taking their own sweet time in munching seafood mix and dry pallets (roughly 2hrs)

You have some great looking Heckels. I have some questions that will help me.
1. How long were they in the planted tank?
2. Did they show any signs of improvement in that tank itself?
3. How long have you had them in Bare bottom tank?
4. Do you have a water change regimen, if so how much/how often?
5. What is your level of expertise in keeping discus in general and Heckel in particular?
6. I did not see a TDS value or I might have overlooked?
7. Did you add any Praziquantel/Albendazole/Fembendazole- if so what is the rationale behind it- none of the above drugs have any transcutaneous absorption and dissolution in water would dilute it enough that mean inhibitory concentrations probably will not be reached. Metronidazole does liquify but the same holds true for it too.

I am planning on doing exactly what you have done- keeping Heckels in heavily planted tank and I am not sure if it is such a good idea but I would love to try it.

Your post is a learning experience for me.
Thanks.

1. roughly 6 Weeks
2. planted tank - they aren't as skittish but very skittish with BB Tank and less skittish after sand is added
3. I only had them for 4 days
4. 50% daily for the first 2 weeks then 50% every 2 days.
5. i'm no expert tbh but did a lot of research and readings
6. personally, i don't take TDS measurement , cause there is no way i can reduce the number if i found out it's high.. I would rather maintain a constant water parameter using the same water that is most convenience to me
7. I did 2 courses of Prazi for now and will do some metro once my fishes accept other food

Tank and Heckels look fabulous! Can't wait to see them in the future. Please keep us updated on them.


Take care!

Eddie

thank you eddie, yr post regarding medication helps me a lot as well.

Apistomaster - thanks for sharing yr experience and knowledge

[erikc]

Okay, looks like things are set. Just be patient and enjoy your Heckels !!