Reply With QuoteThe easy one is take coke or pepsi 20oz or 591ml put 3 tea spoon and fill all the way up with water and shake well, but before that make sure you have hydrogen peroxide 3% in case over dose put HP in.
hendri
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Need urgent help with PP treatment.
Hi, I have prepared a 1gr/liter base solution in RO/DI water and I have put 4 drops of that in a 2 gallons tank but there is no coloration at all, what am I doing wrong?
It does not look like what people say that it will be dark purble, my base solution of 1 gr per liter look more like it.
What is the trick here? I need PP treatment urgent because my fish are dying.
Re: Need urgent help with PP treatment.
The easy one is take coke or pepsi 20oz or 591ml put 3 tea spoon and fill all the way up with water and shake well, but before that make sure you have hydrogen peroxide 3% in case over dose put HP in.
hendri
Re: Need urgent help with PP treatment.
Hi .You will need 2mg per liter over 4 hours.If you have dosed your tank with Prime,it will rendered your PP useless.
Re: Need urgent help with PP treatment.
I did not use Prime, just RO water on that small 2 gallon container.
AT this point all I can do to save the fish (floating and dying) is to do a 10mg/liter 3 minutes dip and hope it will help it (desperate try)
The fish is dying so I don't have time for a 4 hours bath.
Originally Posted by discusbananas
Re: Need urgent help with PP treatment.
Is that for a base solution or is it for the actual bath?
Do I put 3 tea spoon in 20 oz of water as the base solution or as the actual dip? I have a mesuring graduated cup in oz so I can use that.
How much do I need to add for a 10mg/l solution for a 3 minutes bath?
I have no idea how to mesure 2mg/l or 10mg/l.
the instruction here on this site says 1 gramme per litter, that's way less than 3 teaspoon per 20 oz. I think one teaspoon is about 5 grammes, not sure, so that would be 15 gramme per 20 OZ, so that would be nearly 30 gramme per liter. is that correct?
Last edited by Daniella; 05-03-2009 at 07:34 AM.
Re: Need urgent help with PP treatment.
Just sharing...
Potassium Permanganate (PP)
Potassium Permanganate (KMnO4) or PP for short, is one of the most useful of all medicines an aquarist can have in his/her fish medicine cabinet. PP is effective against external fungi, bacteria and parasites, including gill flukes. It is relatively safe and very effective. It can also be used as a steriliser and an oxidiser of organic compounds.
Whenever using PP it is always wise to have some Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) on hand to neutralise the PP in case of an emergency. Most de chlorinators will also neutralise PP.
Some fish are sensitive to PP, for example some Lake Malawi cichlids, and these should be treated at a dose rate of 1mg/litre. For discus the standard dose rate is 2mg/litre for a minimum of four hours. Most cichlids will comfortably tolerate this dosage level. The fish keeper should at all times watch the reaction of their fish during treatment for signs of distress. Many fish, including discus, will clamp up and sit fairly still during treatment. This is normal behaviour and to be expected, however the author has also seen his fish continue with territorial disputes and the like throughout! Many dosing schedules give their dosing in ppm or Parts Per Million, 1 ppm is the same as 1mg/litre.
Before carrying out a PP treatment, or any treatment for that matter, it is advisable to wipe down all hard surfaces in the tank and to siphon out as much debris as possible, in the process performing a partial water change. This will reduce the organic payload both in the tank and in the water column and give a higher chance of treatment success.
The safest way to does PP is to do so in a tank with no substrate and very little decoration, plants and the like. PP works by oxidising the organics in the tank and is indiscriminate, so will happily oxidise the bog wood as well as any bugs we are trying to kill. PP can be used in planted tanks, though the author has had limited success using it this way.
PP when dosed at a maximum of 2mg/litre or lower will have a minimal impact on a fully mature and well established bio filter. Bio filters that have been established for less than six months may be adversely affected so the fish keeper will need to monitor for ammonia after treatment and take the appropriate action if detected. Dosing rates higher than this will almost certainly have a negative impact on your bio filter.
Over dosing with Potassium Permanganate will cause serious harm to your fish including burnt gills and damaged eyes. In some cases it will kill your fish. If you inadvertently overdose the neutralise with Hydrogen Peroxide and perform as large a water change as possible.
The author strongly recommends the use of inexpensive gram scales. These can be bought from a variety of outlets including health food stores, chemists or pharmacies and from the internet. They are well worth the investment and any scale that weighs up to 50grams with a subdivision of a minimum of 0.1gram will suffice.
A kitchen measuring teaspoon of the type used in cooking will, when gently tapped and leveled, hold approximately 7 grams of PP crystals.
The first step in administering PP, or any medication, is to know the volume of water to be treated. This needs to be done as accurately as possible, so measurements should be taken on the inside of the aquarium. If the measurements are taken in millimetres then calculating the capacity as litres is relatively easy.
The following equation will calculate the number of litres:
Length(mm) x Height(mm) x Width(mm) / 1,000,000 = Number of Litres
so
1,200mm x 380mm x 600mm / 1,000,000 = 273.6 Litres
It is important to measure to the top of the water level as there is often a gap between the water level and the top of the tank. We need to know the volume of water present not the total capacity of the tank!
Using the above example if we wanted to treat that amount of water at a dose rate of 2mg/litre we simply multiply the number of litres by 2 and this gives us the total number of milligrams (mg) we need. So in our example this would be 273.6 x 2 = 547.2 mg. We can ignore the value after the decimal point. As can be seen this is a relatively small amount of Potassium Permanganate needed, which is why using a gram scale is of great value. Trying to measure this amount using a teaspoon is virtually impossible.
The PP crystals would then be dissolved in warm water and the mixture then added to the tank. The colour of the water should remain purple or pinkish for a minimum of four hours. If it turns brown or yellowish before this time it indicates the organic load is too high. Some fish keepers will add further known doses of PP to maintain the purple colour, which is relatively safe up to a maximum total dose of 6mg/litre. However the author prefers to stop the treatment using a very small amount of Hydrogen Peroxide (see below), clean the tank and do a partial water change and repeat the treatment the next day.
Always ensure that there is adequate aeration in the tank during treatment, PP will use up oxygen in the water during treatment. Running an air stone or pointing the outlet of the filter at the surface are two ways to achieve this.
One effective way to use Potassium Permanganate is to make a stock solution. A stock solution is a concentrated mixture of PP at a known concentration. Depending on how you measure your volume will depend on the amount of PP crystals to weigh or measure out. However the method is the same no matter how one measures volume. Go to the appropriate section below that is relevant to how you measure volumes.
Volumes Measured in Litres
Volumes Measured in US Gallons
Volumes Measured in Imperial (UK) Gallons
Volumes Measured in Litres
Take a clean plastic bottle that holds 1 litre (1,000ml) such as a cola or lemonade bottle.
Weigh out 20 grams of PP.
Add this PP to the bottle, using a dry funnel or a funnel made from paper may help.
Half fill with fairly hot water.
Put the top on and close firmly.
Shake vigorously until all the PP crystals have dissolved.
Carefully open the bottle and top off to the 1 litre mark with cold water.
Close the bottle and store in a cool dark place away from children.
Dosing:
1 drop of this stock solution will give 1mg/litre or 1ppm dose rate.
2 drops of this stock solution will give 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.
3 drops of this stock solution will give 3mg/litre or 3ppm dose rate.
4 drops of this stock solution will give 4mg/litre or 4ppm dose rate.
20 drops is equivalent to 1 millilitre of stock solution and will treat 10 litres at 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.
Volumes Measured in US Gallons
Take a clean plastic bottle that holds 1 litre (1,000ml) such as a cola or lemonade bottle.
Weigh out 75 grams of PP.
Add this PP to the bottle, using a dry funnel or a funnel made from paper may help.
Half fill with fairly hot water.
Put the top on and close firmly.
Shake vigorously until all the PP crystals have dissolved.
Carefully open the bottle and top off to the 1 litre mark with cold water.
Close the bottle and store in a cool dark place away from children.
Dosing:
1 drop of this stock solution will give 1mg/litre or 1ppm dose rate.
2 drops of this stock solution will give 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.
3 drops of this stock solution will give 3mg/litre or 3ppm dose rate.
4 drops of this stock solution will give 4mg/litre or 4ppm dose rate.
20 drops is equivalent to 1 millilitre of stock solution and will treat 10 US Gallons at 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.
Volumes Measured in Imperial (UK) Gallons
Take a clean plastic bottle that holds 1 litre (1,000ml) such as a cola or lemonade bottle.
Weigh out 90 grams of PP.
Add this PP to the bottle, using a dry funnel or a funnel made from paper may help.
Half fill with fairly hot water.
Put the top on and close firmly.
Shake vigorously until all the PP crystals have dissolved.
Carefully open the bottle and top off to the 1 litre mark with cold water.
Close the bottle and store in a cool dark place away from children.
Dosing:
1 drop of this stock solution will give 1mg/litre or 1ppm dose rate.
2 drops of this stock solution will give 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.
3 drops of this stock solution will give 3mg/litre or 3ppm dose rate.
4 drops of this stock solution will give 4mg/litre or 4ppm dose rate.
20 drops is equivalent to 1 millilitre of stock solution and will treat 10 Imperial (UK) gallons at 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.
Neutralising using Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2)
To neutralise any Potassium Permanganate treatment with Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) carefully add 5mils or 1 teaspoon of 6% by volume H2O2 to the aquarium and gently stir the water to mix. If after a few minutes the water has remained with any colour to it then repeat the dose. The water will go clear when the PP has been neutralised. Care must be taken when using Hydrogen Peroxide as it can also cause harm to the fish and the bio filter so patience is key when using. If you use a higher concentrate of H2O2 add smaller amounts each time, using a pipette makes this much easier.
A water change should be carried out as soon as is practical after treatment.
Cheers
Francis
Re: Need urgent help with PP treatment.
Daniella,
If you have a gram scale weigh out 1/10 of a gram. (0.1g), then add 3/4rs of that to 2gals of water. That will give you 10ppm. Working with such small amounts it's very important to weigh everything super carfully.
Kacey
Re: Need urgent help with PP treatment.
I wouldn't use a strong dose when the fishes are weak.Or when fishes are strong either.Strongest dosage I have used is 4ppm for half an hour but best results are at 2ppm over 4 hours with strong areation.
Way I do mine:remove half the water in the tank,remove biological filter and run the filter separately to keep the bac.alive.Dose at 2 ppm for 4 hours.
Then top up with fresh clean water and replace filter.Reason for this is to kill off all pathogens in the tank .Not much point in treating the fish in a separate tank and then putting them back into a tank full of pathogens.
I do this for 3 days.
Regards
David
Re: Need urgent help with PP treatment.
Hi Daniella,
How is it going?
Yasmin
Re: Need urgent help with PP treatment.
I could not have used it on a weaker fish. To put it simple, it was dying. I picked it up as it was floating on its side at the water surface. It did not move, it was already half dead. the fish did not move during the whole thing, not even when I put it back in the aquarium as it continued to float on the water surface. It is about 30 minutes later that it started to swim a little, then more and more.
Now seem back to normal but I know it's not yet out of danger, so I will be careful to watch and continue treatment.
I needed something much quicker as I felt the fish did not have 4 hours left.
For the next treatment I will use the 4 hours shot to kill everything in the aquarium like you say. Problem is to evaluate the amount of liter in my aquarium since it is not square at all. One side is round..so pretty darn hard to guess. the full thing is around 120 gallons, but could be 115 or 125.
that is why I treat in a 20 gallon when needed. that is much easier to mesure. I will also treat the main tank but not with the fish in it in case I would not be accurate in calculating the volume. Here is my aquarium:
http://www.dejia-aquarium.com/cp7.htm
I have the the AUL 1500 which is 527 liter according to the manufacturer but it is not since they mesure all the way to the top where the light fixture are.
As you can see, this is not an easy task to mesure. Surely treating in the main tank is best but if I go under dose it won't be effecient and it will be for nothing.
If you bypass your filter, what are the chance that nasty bugs are cought in there and will be eventualy released back in to the aquarium?
Re: Need urgent help with PP treatment.
thanks a lot.
For the peroxide, I could use a dechlorinator I guess, since it is supposed to neutralize it too.
As for mesuring, I went to the drugstore and asked them to mesure it for me since I do not have a gram scale.
Just sharing...
Potassium Permanganate (PP)
Potassium Permanganate (KMnO4) or PP for short, is one of the most useful of all medicines an aquarist can have in his/her fish medicine cabinet. PP is effective against external fungi, bacteria and parasites, including gill flukes. It is relatively safe and very effective. It can also be used as a steriliser and an oxidiser of organic compounds.
Whenever using PP it is always wise to have some Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) on hand to neutralise the PP in case of an emergency. Most de chlorinators will also neutralise PP.
Some fish are sensitive to PP, for example some Lake Malawi cichlids, and these should be treated at a dose rate of 1mg/litre. For discus the standard dose rate is 2mg/litre for a minimum of four hours. Most cichlids will comfortably tolerate this dosage level. The fish keeper should at all times watch the reaction of their fish during treatment for signs of distress. Many fish, including discus, will clamp up and sit fairly still during treatment. This is normal behaviour and to be expected, however the author has also seen his fish continue with territorial disputes and the like throughout! Many dosing schedules give their dosing in ppm or Parts Per Million, 1 ppm is the same as 1mg/litre.
Before carrying out a PP treatment, or any treatment for that matter, it is advisable to wipe down all hard surfaces in the tank and to siphon out as much debris as possible, in the process performing a partial water change. This will reduce the organic payload both in the tank and in the water column and give a higher chance of treatment success.
The safest way to does PP is to do so in a tank with no substrate and very little decoration, plants and the like. PP works by oxidising the organics in the tank and is indiscriminate, so will happily oxidise the bog wood as well as any bugs we are trying to kill. PP can be used in planted tanks, though the author has had limited success using it this way.
PP when dosed at a maximum of 2mg/litre or lower will have a minimal impact on a fully mature and well established bio filter. Bio filters that have been established for less than six months may be adversely affected so the fish keeper will need to monitor for ammonia after treatment and take the appropriate action if detected. Dosing rates higher than this will almost certainly have a negative impact on your bio filter.
Over dosing with Potassium Permanganate will cause serious harm to your fish including burnt gills and damaged eyes. In some cases it will kill your fish. If you inadvertently overdose the neutralise with Hydrogen Peroxide and perform as large a water change as possible.
The author strongly recommends the use of inexpensive gram scales. These can be bought from a variety of outlets including health food stores, chemists or pharmacies and from the internet. They are well worth the investment and any scale that weighs up to 50grams with a subdivision of a minimum of 0.1gram will suffice.
A kitchen measuring teaspoon of the type used in cooking will, when gently tapped and leveled, hold approximately 7 grams of PP crystals.
The first step in administering PP, or any medication, is to know the volume of water to be treated. This needs to be done as accurately as possible, so measurements should be taken on the inside of the aquarium. If the measurements are taken in millimetres then calculating the capacity as litres is relatively easy.
The following equation will calculate the number of litres:
Length(mm) x Height(mm) x Width(mm) / 1,000,000 = Number of Litres
so
1,200mm x 380mm x 600mm / 1,000,000 = 273.6 Litres
It is important to measure to the top of the water level as there is often a gap between the water level and the top of the tank. We need to know the volume of water present not the total capacity of the tank!
Using the above example if we wanted to treat that amount of water at a dose rate of 2mg/litre we simply multiply the number of litres by 2 and this gives us the total number of milligrams (mg) we need. So in our example this would be 273.6 x 2 = 547.2 mg. We can ignore the value after the decimal point. As can be seen this is a relatively small amount of Potassium Permanganate needed, which is why using a gram scale is of great value. Trying to measure this amount using a teaspoon is virtually impossible.
The PP crystals would then be dissolved in warm water and the mixture then added to the tank. The colour of the water should remain purple or pinkish for a minimum of four hours. If it turns brown or yellowish before this time it indicates the organic load is too high. Some fish keepers will add further known doses of PP to maintain the purple colour, which is relatively safe up to a maximum total dose of 6mg/litre. However the author prefers to stop the treatment using a very small amount of Hydrogen Peroxide (see below), clean the tank and do a partial water change and repeat the treatment the next day.
Always ensure that there is adequate aeration in the tank during treatment, PP will use up oxygen in the water during treatment. Running an air stone or pointing the outlet of the filter at the surface are two ways to achieve this.
One effective way to use Potassium Permanganate is to make a stock solution. A stock solution is a concentrated mixture of PP at a known concentration. Depending on how you measure your volume will depend on the amount of PP crystals to weigh or measure out. However the method is the same no matter how one measures volume. Go to the appropriate section below that is relevant to how you measure volumes.
Volumes Measured in Litres
Volumes Measured in US Gallons
Volumes Measured in Imperial (UK) Gallons
Volumes Measured in Litres
Take a clean plastic bottle that holds 1 litre (1,000ml) such as a cola or lemonade bottle.
Weigh out 20 grams of PP.
Add this PP to the bottle, using a dry funnel or a funnel made from paper may help.
Half fill with fairly hot water.
Put the top on and close firmly.
Shake vigorously until all the PP crystals have dissolved.
Carefully open the bottle and top off to the 1 litre mark with cold water.
Close the bottle and store in a cool dark place away from children.
Dosing:
1 drop of this stock solution will give 1mg/litre or 1ppm dose rate.
2 drops of this stock solution will give 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.
3 drops of this stock solution will give 3mg/litre or 3ppm dose rate.
4 drops of this stock solution will give 4mg/litre or 4ppm dose rate.
20 drops is equivalent to 1 millilitre of stock solution and will treat 10 litres at 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.
Volumes Measured in US Gallons
Take a clean plastic bottle that holds 1 litre (1,000ml) such as a cola or lemonade bottle.
Weigh out 75 grams of PP.
Add this PP to the bottle, using a dry funnel or a funnel made from paper may help.
Half fill with fairly hot water.
Put the top on and close firmly.
Shake vigorously until all the PP crystals have dissolved.
Carefully open the bottle and top off to the 1 litre mark with cold water.
Close the bottle and store in a cool dark place away from children.
Dosing:
1 drop of this stock solution will give 1mg/litre or 1ppm dose rate.
2 drops of this stock solution will give 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.
3 drops of this stock solution will give 3mg/litre or 3ppm dose rate.
4 drops of this stock solution will give 4mg/litre or 4ppm dose rate.
20 drops is equivalent to 1 millilitre of stock solution and will treat 10 US Gallons at 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.
Volumes Measured in Imperial (UK) Gallons
Take a clean plastic bottle that holds 1 litre (1,000ml) such as a cola or lemonade bottle.
Weigh out 90 grams of PP.
Add this PP to the bottle, using a dry funnel or a funnel made from paper may help.
Half fill with fairly hot water.
Put the top on and close firmly.
Shake vigorously until all the PP crystals have dissolved.
Carefully open the bottle and top off to the 1 litre mark with cold water.
Close the bottle and store in a cool dark place away from children.
Dosing:
1 drop of this stock solution will give 1mg/litre or 1ppm dose rate.
2 drops of this stock solution will give 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.
3 drops of this stock solution will give 3mg/litre or 3ppm dose rate.
4 drops of this stock solution will give 4mg/litre or 4ppm dose rate.
20 drops is equivalent to 1 millilitre of stock solution and will treat 10 Imperial (UK) gallons at 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.
Neutralising using Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2)
To neutralise any Potassium Permanganate treatment with Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) carefully add 5mils or 1 teaspoon of 6% by volume H2O2 to the aquarium and gently stir the water to mix. If after a few minutes the water has remained with any colour to it then repeat the dose. The water will go clear when the PP has been neutralised. Care must be taken when using Hydrogen Peroxide as it can also cause harm to the fish and the bio filter so patience is key when using. If you use a higher concentrate of H2O2 add smaller amounts each time, using a pipette makes this much easier.
A water change should be carried out as soon as is practical after treatment.
Cheers
Francis
Re: Need urgent help with PP treatment.
[
If you bypass your filter, what are the chance that nasty bugs are cought in there and will be eventualy released back in to the aquarium?[/QUOTE]
Hi ,hence i always drop the water level by half.After treatment,I top up the level and if PP is still active the most the tank have is only 1ppm which doesn't do too much harm to the filter.As with regards to the nasty bugs they would have been greatly reduce after 3 treatment over 3 days .And in 2 weeks you wouldn't believe how well they look.
Re: Need urgent help with PP treatment.
I guess. I can see my melon look much better already.
They probably have their load of permanent parasites and removing all this must be really healthy for them. Then they can grow strong without parasites.
Do you tink if a fish received a 10ppm bath that putting in a 4 hours bath at 2ppm would be too much?
I am even afraid of doing a second 3 minute bath but I know one is probably not enough to kill everything.
Did you ever had to cut the treatment short because the fish were not feeling well or had bad side effect during that 4 hours treatment?
so from what I understand, 4 hours treatment at 2ppm is less harsh on the fish than 3 minutes at 10ppm?
Hi ,hence i always drop the water level by half.After treatment,I top up the level and if PP is still active the most the tank have is only 1ppm which doesn't do too much harm to the filter.As with regards to the nasty bugs they would have been greatly reduce after 3 treatment over 3 days .And in 2 weeks you wouldn't believe how well they look.[/QUOTE]
Re: Need urgent help with PP treatment.
[/QUOTE]
I have never done a 10ppm and would never do it.I have done a 4ppm over half an hour (when I am in a rush)and they don't like it.
Re: Need urgent help with PP treatment.
I could not find a single scale there that can do lower gradation than one gram. So I had to mesure one gram in a liter for a base solution and than use that diluted to get my concentration.
I used 140ml of this solution in my 72 liter QT. That way I was sure that it was mesured correctly.
It is way too hard to mesure precisely a smaller amount. Even my pharmacisty scale does not go below 1 gram!
Where can one find such precise scale?
I am not doing 10ppm bath any longer but just 4 hours bath at 2ppm.
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