How soft is too soft?

[calihawker]

Normaly I'd post this to the water works section but since this concerns the contest discus specifically, I wanted to post it here. (beside there's a lot of traffic here these days)

My water parameters:

PH 7.2 after 24hrs. aging
GH<1
KH<1
TDS 5ppm according to my water company.

Really soft.

I'm not concerned about PH shifts since I'm changing 100% of the water daily and I know all the methods of hardening water, I do so with my display. The question is, is my water too soft to grow out these juvies? If so what would be optimum parameters?

Thanks!

[wgtaylor]

Normaly I'd post this to the water works section but since this concerns the contest discus specifically, I wanted to post it here. (beside there's a lot of traffic here these days)

My water parameters:

PH 7.2 after 24hrs. aging
GH<1
KH<1
TDS 5ppm according to my water company.

Really soft.

I'm not concerned about PH shifts since I'm changing 100% of the water daily and I know all the methods of hardening water, I do so with my display. The question is, is my water too soft to grow out these juvies? If so what would be optimum parameters?

Thanks!

Hi Steve,

I hope this contest will help answer many questions about keeping discus.
My gh and kh is less than 1 also. I don't understand your water company tds of 5ppm. Some people's ro water is sometimes higher than 5 depending on the water source. At some point you may want to get your own tds meter so you can track it yourself when you are breeding discus. My tap water tds is quite low, 29.5 ppm, 64.2 ms. Great for breeding but will have to see how it grows out discus. So far it seems to be fine.

Bill

My tap ppm


My tap ms

[brewmaster15]

Man, I wish I had your water Guys!

-al

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

My only concern with such soft water for growout would be lack of minerals. So long as you feed a good quality food they will get their minerals that way.

-Ryan

[calihawker]

Thanks Ryan.

I'm putting together a new seafood/beefheart mix and if you or anyone else can suggest suppliments to add I would appreciate it. I'm already doing ~1 tbls liquid centrum per pound of mix.

At the same time, Angel (Sriangel) suggested that the best way to get calcium for bone development is through their gills. So I'm looking at that angle as well.

[wgtaylor]

My only concern with such soft water for growout would be lack of minerals. So long as you feed a good quality food they will get their minerals that way.

-Ryan

Hi Ryan,

How would we know if they are not getting enough minerals? Slow growth, birth defects or other outward signs? Just curious guys. Good point about the calcium Steve. Thanks,

Bill

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Thanks Ryan.

I'm putting together a new seafood/beefheart mix and if you or anyone else can suggest suppliments to add I would appreciate it. I'm already doing ~1 tbls liquid centrum per pound of mix.

At the same time, Angel (Sriangel) suggested that the best way to get calcium for bone development is through their gills. So I'm looking at that angle as well.

Calcium uptake is proportional to the uptake of many nutrients, phosphorus especially. Yes, they can use calcium in the water but dietary calcium is more effective. Only problem is it can be more difficult to administer, depending on the diet. Beefheart is very high in phosphorus, and I assume you wont be trying to grow discus on a vegetarian diet....so the only supplements you could try adding would be a good mineral premix. Florida Aqua Farms has a good mix: https://3kserver7.com/~frank/secure/...AMINS_MINERALS
It uses a calcium carbonate carrier, which is a soluble form of calcium that is usable to the fish....use that and you should be covered regardless of water parameters.

-Ryan

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Hi Ryan,

How would we know if they are not getting enough minerals? Slow growth, birth defects or other outward signs? Just curious guys. Good point about the calcium Steve. Thanks,

Bill

Minerals play a HUGE part in a fishes overall well being. Lack of minerals will represent themselves as slow/no growth, poor appetite, apathy, defects, immune deficiency, etc. Minerals even play a critical role in a fishes osmoregulation system. I believe we should all be adding a mineral premix to our diets, regardless of our water parameters.

-Ryan

[Eddie]

Normaly I'd post this to the water works section but since this concerns the contest discus specifically, I wanted to post it here. (beside there's a lot of traffic here these days)

My water parameters:

PH 7.2 after 24hrs. aging
GH<1
KH<1
TDS 5ppm according to my water company.

Really soft.

I'm not concerned about PH shifts since I'm changing 100% of the water daily and I know all the methods of hardening water, I do so with my display. The question is, is my water too soft to grow out these juvies? If so what would be optimum parameters?

Thanks!

Hey Steve, my water is very similar, straight from tap. The minerals my fish get are probably solely from the food and how I feed my fish. I am sure there is probably some source of minerals in water as well I think your fish will be doing EXCELLENT.

All the best buddy,

Eddie

[SriAngel]

MY WATER HARDNESS right out of tap:




BURGER MIX


I had to put a shot of the bottle in the pic, lest people thought i put cocaine in my mix lol!




ALL MIXED TOGETHER. The Burger mix readily takes any additives easily since the consistency is that of peanut butter and doesn't need a binder as the 70 percent shrimp does the job.


I had a cool vid of them eating it but i didn't have time to upload it yet.

Ryan,
Excellent info about the mineral additives, placed an order already! As i only add calcium i often wonder what improvements i would get with potassium and other trace elements.

P.S. I love this competition, it gets a chance to share the excitement of growing discus, and will end up producing a plethora of new info on successfully producing dinner plate size discus. GOOD LUCK EVERYONE!

[calihawker]

Thanks for that link Ryan!!

Angel, how much of that calcium supplement do you add per pound of mix? I have a new batch going in the blender today.

Oh, and BTW my TDS tested 20 ppm.

[Chad Hughes]

Steve,

Start breeding discus! You have great water for it!

Best wishes!

[SriAngel]

Thanks for that link Ryan!!

Angel, how much of that calcium supplement do you add per pound of mix? I have a new batch going in the blender today.

Oh, and BTW my TDS tested 20 ppm.

I add very little about .25 ounce per lb of food. I prefer to add all my supplements fresh after i thaw out the food, there are some ramblings about nutrients being compromised by freezing. I also add 1 drop of centrum liquid vitamins in. Depending on your mix, you might be better off blending it intogether and freezing it. The burger is like peanut butter or industrial adhesive it binds and keeps everything together, some other mixes will break up if you try to add stuff in after the fact. As for your water its true great for breeding, but then you run into the wall i did, gill deformities and slow growth. It took me about 3 months to get them to 2", which might be okay.

Just a note: this is just my experience, as you are an experience reef keeper you have all the fishkeeping ability, im just erring on the side of caution. Try the calcium supplement and as this competition progresses keep an eye on your growth rates. This is going to produce tons of data on how variable water chemistry affects discus growth. I wonder if everyone is going to take readings of their hardness, pH, this will be useful in my opinion.

Angel

[kaceyo]

Steve & Angel,
Your water is near exactly like mine. 44ppm TDS from the tap and 1dKH. I've been adding calcium to my BH mix since I started with discus. I also add Calcium Chloride and Magnesium Sulphate to the water sometimes to bring it up to 200ppm. I do think I've gotten slightly better growth when adding calcium/magnesium and even see some improvement of the shapes overall. Or it could be a case of me seeing what I want to see, lol!

Kacey

[calihawker]

This is going to produce tons of data on how variable water chemistry affects discus growth. I wonder if everyone is going to take readings of their hardness, pH, this will be useful in my opinion

Wow, this is a tough one. I believe in this contest as a source of knowledge, and the ability to do empirical research here is invaluable. But my competitive nature tells me I need to take every advantage.

I'm gonna have to sleep on this one.