Homeland security boys alittle touchy...

[ShinShin]

Geez, Graham. 1/3 the gun related injuries? With no guns, so to speak, in Canada? I wonder what the "real" reason you can't have guns up there? Seems you boys don't know how to handle them. No wonder they won't let you have hand guns .

Mat

[MSD]

Mark, you visit Mt. Pocono? That's not far from me at all! About 7 miles north. You should let me know when you're up and maybe we can get together for a BBQ or something. We used to shoot at and were members of Palmerton Gun Club and we've also gone to Sunset Hill range, but now we just shoot on our property, we have plenty of room to do so.

You are lucky to live up there, I went to Sunset for most of the shooting, nice outdoor range with knowledgeable people. We may buy a time share now that Brookdale has closed, we were just at Great Wolf last summer. Thank you for the generous offer, maybe we'll be up there in August and we'll take you out. With Brookdale closed I don't know where we would stay as our 12 year old comes with us.

[brewmaster15]

Graham,
Do the statistics of Gun related accidents and deaths say anything about whether the incident was caused by the person holding the gun or whether the gun was found guilty of the acting alone in the incident
? I'm being facitious here intentionally but trying to make a point about guns. Theres no doubt that guns are dangerous and deadly if misused..but with out someone to misuse them..they are just a hunk of metal, a paperwieght, or a mantel ornament.

I'm also not saying there are not statistics that show numbers of incidents per population are high in the USA but I think there are multiple ways to interpret that data... One way is as you are interpreting the data in this discussion in support of anti-gun dialogue... which is fine as its your opinion. .... yet even with all the restrictions you have in canada...Your statistics ..though roughly half the]USA...are not really that great either ...are they?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate


Another way is to look at the data and say... Theres a need for better laws to deal with criminals that are using guns and prevent the events that lead to the criminal activity...this in itself would minimize the number of gun ownership and stats by those looking to protect themselves and criminals. ... It can also be interpreted that theres a need for better education and awareness about guns so that incidents are minimized...Thats how I look at the data.

Incidentally, Whether you are in the pro or against gun debate... I've come across a very decent source of information that you may be interested in...

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/index.html

regards,
al

[poconogal]

What I don't understand in that chart is why other countries have only one year listed, I assume the year the data was collected, and yet the USA has what appears to be a spread ranging from 1993 to 2004? Were the stats compiled for the USA over an 11 year period, while stats for other countries were compiled during a one year period? I saw no explanation for the USA having 2004/1993 listed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate

Stats are so easy to manipulate to prove/disprove a point someone wants to make. I take them all with several grains of salt, anyway.

[poconogal]

You are lucky to live up there, I went to Sunset for most of the shooting, nice outdoor range with knowledgeable people. We may buy a time share not that Brookdale has closed, we were just at Great Wolf last summer. Thank you for the generous offer, maybe well be up there in August and we'll take you out. With Brookdale closed I don't know where we would stay as our 12 year old comes with us.

Well, there's Shawnee, or Camelback has lodging too I think, and their summer water park, and there's so many other places, depends on what you're looking for. Mt. Airy, but they have the casino, so I don't imagine you'd like your 12 y/o in a casino, LOL!! So when you're coming up, give a shout.

[Condor]

In my opinion issues like this are never about the issues, they are about the principles behind the issues. Gun laws are not about safety. Both those in favor of guns and those who are against guns value safety. They just differ in their ways of going about gaining that safety. Gun laws are about personal choice and the freedom to make that personal choice, or the lack there of. I think this is why these debates can go for so long and get heated.

There are other issues that have this same "dual nature", where the actual issue is not the issue at stake, it is the issue behind the issue that is the real dilemma.

Adrian

Edit- This point has already been touched on, but I think it's a good thing to keep in mind.

Quote from Al...

Even knowing all this....I don't want my freedom to own a gun taken from me by anyone else...Its one thing if I chose to not own a gun... but its another for me to be told by my government that Guns are too dangerous for you to own....so we are taking that right away....Odds are I will never own a gun... but Freedoms lost thru legislation are rarely given back. I know some people fear others with Guns and what they'll do.. I fear the day when everything you can or can't do is dictated to you by Governments and special interest groups. .... Every law may seem inconsequential and minor...but each law enacted builds on the previous ones and have a culminatory affect... ..I'm not saying laws are not necessary...but I do think that we should all weigh very carefully what freedoms we are willing to give up and what ones we are not...that is afterall...what freedom means.

[calihawker]

Stats are so easy to manipulate to prove/disprove a point someone wants to make. I take them all with several grains of salt, anyway.

There's an old saying, don't know where it originated.

"statistics lie, liars use statistics"


Cheers!

[Peachtree Discus]

i kinda agree with adrian. a lot of the points in this discussion seem slightly misaligned with the point they are addressing. hence...the thread started off talking about homeland security, yet the discussion has touched on everything from constitutional rights to crime to police to gun related deaths.

stats are like generalizations....they don't lie, but they don't always seem to apply to a single situation. about the stats....IMO, if some countries can have guns and other countries cannot, ...doesn't that mean that the stats are skewed?

[MSD]

Well, there's Shawnee, or Camelback has lodging too I think, and their summer water park, and there's so many other places, depends on what you're looking for. Mt. Airy, but they have the casino, so I don't imagine you'd like your 12 y/o in a casino, LOL!! So when you're coming up, give a shout.

I went to that casino while at Great Wolf, it was OK but no Las Vegas. My friend keeps asking us about staying at Woodlock Pines, super nice but super expensive, maybe they will have midweek discounts?

[Bgroovy2]

My two cents;
In our rush to make everyone "safe" after 911, our Gov. forgot all about the constatution!