Raising KH without raising PH?

[Daniella]

Hi,

I have a Gh of 5 and a Kh of 3. I wish to raise that Kh a knotch or 2 but my Ph is at 7.0 or 7.2 (not sure of the color here) and I don,t want to raise it.

I have Seachem discus buffer but I do not wish to be the slave of such expensive product. Is there anything that will raise the KH without raising my PH as well? A bit like discus buffer does but without being a rip off for the cost? Discus buffer contain phosphates. I do not mind because I have a bb tank with no plant and low light.

I am afraid that at KH 3 that my PH might swing with time and crash so I want to raise that, or do I worry for nothing?

I use RO/DI mix with tap. Tap is GH 7 and KH 5.

I also don't want to raise my GH by adding more tap.

Is there a cheap solution to this?

Also with a KH 3, what is my margin for a stable PH? Will I be safe for a few days at least or should I be worried that the PH might crash in matter of hours?

Also will the nitrifying bacterias do well with a KH of 3? I think it's pretty much the limit for a good working biofilter?

Thanks a lot!

[Eddie]

Hi,

I have a Gh of 5 and a Kh of 3. I wish to raise that Kh a knotch or 2 but my Ph is at 7.0 or 7.2 (not sure of the color here) and I don,t want to raise it.

I have Seachem discus buffer but I do not wish to be the slave of such expensive product. Is there anything that will raise the KH without raising my PH as well? A bit like discus buffer does but without being a rip off for the cost? Discus buffer contain phosphates. I do not mind because I have a bb tank with no plant and low light.

I am afraid that at KH 3 that my PH might swing with time and crash so I want to raise that, or do I worry for nothing?

I use RO/DI mix with tap. Tap is GH 7 and KH 5.

I also don't want to raise my GH by adding more tap.

Is there a cheap solution to this?

Also with a KH 3, what is my margin for a stable PH? Will I be safe for a few days at least or should I be worried that the PH might crash in matter of hours?

Also will the nitrifying bacterias do well with a KH of 3? I think it's pretty much the limit for a good working biofilter?

Thanks a lot!

Daniella,

You should be fine with a KH of 3. I have a KH of 2 and my PH doesn't swing too much after a few days. I do however do daily 100% waterchanges so that keeps my PH stable. I've read that nitrification in itself can begin to lower KH over time, so you could possibly begin to have PH instability over time. Why don't you try it and see how it goes, testing the KH/PH twice daily for 3 or 4 days without a water change.

Eddie

[brewmaster15]

Easy to read article here...

http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/waterchemistry.htm

Ways to increase kH
Adding sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). One teaspoon of baking soda added to 50 liters of water can raise the kH of the water by approx 4 deg dH without a major affect on pH.

I use crushed coral in my filters but my KH is much lower than yours to start..

Technically if you maintain a good water change schedule, which replaces the KH consummed in your tank by biological processes...You should not have a problem with these values...

I have a Gh of 5 and a Kh of 3. I wish to raise that Kh a knotch or 2 but my Ph is at 7.0 or 7.2 (not sure of the color here) and I don,t want to raise it.

Just monitor your KH and pH and plot it against the amount of water changes you do and you'll come up with the value that is optimum for maintaining your KH and pH
Hth,
al

[Eddie]

Thanks Al, I used Baking Soda to keep my PH stable when I first started keeping discus, just couldn't remember how much. I always wanted to know a good measurement amount for reference.

Take care,

Eddie

[Daniella]

ok that's cool. I thougth that adding BS would raise my PH but it it does not than that is much cheaper

My worry is if I have to go out of town like for a week and do no wather change for that time.

I will probable leave for a trip for 7 or 8 days and not sure what to do with the fish then. Have someone feed them and risk a mess or just plain not feed them for that time. This is a real contract to take care of discus.

Will crushed coral raise the PH?

I guess the more I will feed the fish, the more ammonia and nitrites needing to be processed, the more the KH is going to go down? I mean without water change often?

Also what do they mean by not affecting the PH too much? are we talking about .2 or .4 in difference or 1 or 2 degree? what is not too much?

Easy to read article here...

http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/waterchemistry.htm





I use crushed coral in my filters but my KH is much lower than yours to start..

Technically if you maintain a good water change schedule, which replaces the KH consummed in your tank by biological processes...You should not have a problem with these values... Just monitor your KH and pH and plot it against the amount of water changes you do and you'll come up with the value that is optimum for maintaining your KH and pH
Hth,
al

[Daniella]

huh...no wonder your PH does not swing too much after a few days if you do 100% water change each day.

Can't do that in a 130 gallons though. I do 20 to 30% each day and sometime I just put back what I syphon to remove excess food so that's more like 15% water change.

Daniella,

You should be fine with a KH of 3. I have a KH of 2 and my PH doesn't swing too much after a few days. I do however do daily 100% waterchanges so that keeps my PH stable. I've read that nitrification in itself can begin to lower KH over time, so you could possibly begin to have PH instability over time. Why don't you try it and see how it goes, testing the KH/PH twice daily for 3 or 4 days without a water change.

Eddie

[Eddie]

huh...no wonder your PH does not swing too much after a few days if you do 100% water change each day.

Can't do that in a 130 gallons though. I do 20 to 30% each day and sometime I just put back what I syphon to remove excess food so that's more like 15% water change.

Yeah, but I stock my tanks to the limit and sometimes more, plus I feed a seafood mix, similar to beefheart between 8-10 times a day. The water quality is BOMBARDED by the time I do a water change.

Eddie

[Daniella]

Talking about bombarding water quality. I noticed that my nitrites are going up a little by the end of the day and it takes the whole night to go back to trace or nothing. Is that not a bit slow?

Of course I am talking traces here. Like yesterday evening the nitrites was to about .1 or a little less and this morning it was maybe .02 (very faint trace). I had to do a tap water test and compare them both to see the difference but there is still a little trace of it.

I was wondering if it is normal to take like 6 or 7 hours for the bacterias to process the nitrites? and this little trace amount, can it cause anemia in my fish in the long run? When I go home for lunch everything is back to absolute 0.

I never bothered with this before when I had my aquarium because they were not sensitive fish as discus, so now I want to do everything right for them. I never really monitored the nitrogen cycle before except once here and there.

Should it always be to 0 or is it normal that one can see the cycle going on with temporary trace of nitrites? am I too paranoid here?

Yeah, but I stock my tanks to the limit and sometimes more, plus I feed a seafood mix, similar to beefheart between 8-10 times a day. The water quality is BOMBARDED by the time I do a water change.

Eddie

[Eddie]

Talking about bombarding water quality. I noticed that my nitrites are going up a little by the end of the day and it takes the whole night to go back to trace or nothing. Is that not a bit slow?

Of course I am talking traces here. Like yesterday evening the nitrites was to about .1 or a little less and this morning it was maybe .02 (very faint trace). I had to do a tap water test and compare them both to see the difference but there is still a little trace of it.

I was wondering if it is normal to take like 6 or 7 hours for the bacterias to process the nitrites? and this little trace amount, can it cause anemia in my fish in the long run? When I go home for lunch everything is back to absolute 0.

I never bothered with this before when I had my aquarium because they were not sensitive fish as discus, so now I want to do everything right for them. I never really monitored the nitrogen cycle before except once here and there.

Should it always be to 0 or is it normal that one can see the cycle going on with temporary trace of nitrites? am I too paranoid here?

Your bacteria colony is probably still building up to handle the bioload. Mine is 0 all the time.

Eddie

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Talking about bombarding water quality. I noticed that my nitrites are going up a little by the end of the day and it takes the whole night to go back to trace or nothing. Is that not a bit slow?

Of course I am talking traces here. Like yesterday evening the nitrites was to about .1 or a little less and this morning it was maybe .02 (very faint trace). I had to do a tap water test and compare them both to see the difference but there is still a little trace of it.

I was wondering if it is normal to take like 6 or 7 hours for the bacterias to process the nitrites? and this little trace amount, can it cause anemia in my fish in the long run? When I go home for lunch everything is back to absolute 0.

I never bothered with this before when I had my aquarium because they were not sensitive fish as discus, so now I want to do everything right for them. I never really monitored the nitrogen cycle before except once here and there.

Should it always be to 0 or is it normal that one can see the cycle going on with temporary trace of nitrites? am I too paranoid here?

In an ideal world your biofilter would process all things nitrogen in it's first pass through. Unfortunetly this is not the case. Even in commercial aquaculture systems, not everything is processed in a single pass under intense stocking densities (though most is due to high performance filtration technology). In a hobbyist's tank it could take hours to do this, as you are seeing now. I guess the big question I would have is how do the fish act when No2 levels are elevated slightly?? Still active, swimming around, curious? Or do they darken up, hide a bit and generally dont look well? LC/50 levels for No2 in discus have not been established (and I doubt it will anytime soon), so no one could honestly say your fish are safe at any given level...which is why 0 is always a safe number. Honestly, if your fish are acting perfectly normal when the nitrite levels are up I wouldnt worry about it. Even then, as a precaution salt added to the tank is a safe bet to protect the fish.

I do however have a concern regarding your water parameters and the reason why you use RO. Since I havent been following any of your recent threads, for what reason are you using RO? Is there anyway you could obtain an alkalinity test kit? With such a low KH, your alkalinity couldnt be far behind. If your alkalinity is low it will inhibit your biological filtration capacity, which could explain why it takes your system a while to process No2. Alkalinity for a hobbyist system should hover no less than 40-60mg/L (the higher the better). It could also be that your filtration system for some reason is still building nitrobacter to handle the No2 load. While you are having these issues, I would feed as little as possible to minimize the amount of nitrogen going into the system.

-Ryan

[Daniella]

Ok but since you do 100% water change each day, that's not really surprising. what happen if you only change 30% or 40%?

Your bacteria colony is probably still building up to handle the bioload. Mine is 0 all the time.

Eddie

[Daniella]

My fish seem to be more anoyed when I do water change than when I don't
They don't like when I do water change and then they lay low on the bottom of the aquarium waiting for it to finish.

They seem fine and very relaxed and they breath at normal speed. They have good appetite and don't scratch.

I have 6 discus in a 120 gallon, so no overstocking there but I feed them lots of food and let the food like 30 minutes as they continue to eat all that time. I only syphon when they stop eating, wich is basicaly when there is nothing left

My cycle is not fully completed I guess. It does go to 0 by morning and it is very little, like I said, less than .1 or so. Since I do 30% water change on the evening, then the load is even less for the night.

I was worried that they might have anemia on the long run but it might just be that my biofilter is not fully mature yet. I just restarted a cycle after totaly wiping my biofilter with PP to cure the blackening disease.

As for the RO, my tap water is GH 7 and KH 5, Ph 7.4, and I wanted it a tad softer, so I mix a bit of RO in it to get GH 5 and that drop the KH to 3 and the Ph between 7.0 to 7.2. Today the reading was GH 4 and KH 3.

My discus seem to like this soft water as some are pairing now, so it looks like.

but you are right. This could impair my biofilter I know and is that is why I wanted to raise my Kh.

For the tests, all I could find was API Gh and Kh test. Does API make an alkalinity test?

In an ideal world your biofilter would process all things nitrogen in it's first pass through. Unfortunetly this is not the case. Even in commercial aquaculture systems, not everything is processed in a single pass under intense stocking densities (though most is due to high performance filtration technology). In a hobbyist's tank it could take hours to do this, as you are seeing now. I guess the big question I would have is how do the fish act when No2 levels are elevated slightly?? Still active, swimming around, curious? Or do they darken up, hide a bit and generally dont look well? LC/50 levels for No2 in discus have not been established (and I doubt it will anytime soon), so no one could honestly say your fish are safe at any given level...which is why 0 is always a safe number. Honestly, if your fish are acting perfectly normal when the nitrite levels are up I wouldnt worry about it. Even then, as a precaution salt added to the tank is a safe bet to protect the fish.

I do however have a concern regarding your water parameters and the reason why you use RO. Since I havent been following any of your recent threads, for what reason are you using RO? Is there anyway you could obtain an alkalinity test kit? With such a low KH, your alkalinity couldnt be far behind. If your alkalinity is low it will inhibit your biological filtration capacity, which could explain why it takes your system a while to process No2. Alkalinity for a hobbyist system should hover no less than 40-60mg/L (the higher the better). It could also be that your filtration system for some reason is still building nitrobacter to handle the No2 load. While you are having these issues, I would feed as little as possible to minimize the amount of nitrogen going into the system.

-Ryan

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

If the PP was dosed a bit high I can see how it could screw up your biofilter. If the fish are acting fine at all times I wouldnt worry about it then. It sounds like you are doing everything right. But I am still wondering why you use RO.....just because the fish generally do better with it? A few degrees of water hardness shouldnt make any difference (RO vs tap). Maybe there is something in the tap water that they dont like. Maybe heavy metals or something? As for an alkalinity test....I have no idea if API makes one or not. Hach or LaMotte are going to be your better quality test kits for that (they are more expensive than a normal test kit but are well worth it).

-Ryan

[Eddie]

Ok but since you do 100% water change each day, that's not really surprising. what happen if you only change 30% or 40%?

It stays zero, even when I'm out of town for 2 weeks. Built my filters STRONG.

Eddie

[Daniella]

I intentionaly dosed it to very high 100ppm as there were no more fish in the aquarium and I wanted to make sure that whatever was bad in there was going to be wiped out. It was

The fish are amazing! Awesome colors, great appetite, never looked so good and are breathing with normal speed.

You are right. I am using RO because I want to give them the best possible water. They have been very sick with the blackening disease one month ago and I wanted to give them the best water possible to help perk them up.

I plan on keeping the water with a Kh of 5 and a Gh of 3 if I can. I could probably mix half tap to half RO to give me a Gh of 6 or 5, but now the nitrites filtration seem to be catching up. Today was better with less noticeable reading. It was hard to tell there was a trace.

I also started to give them white worms and they like them a lot.

Is testing alkalinity really important? Or just Ph, Kh and Gh not enough?

If the PP was dosed a bit high I can see how it could screw up your biofilter. If the fish are acting fine at all times I wouldnt worry about it then. It sounds like you are doing everything right. But I am still wondering why you use RO.....just because the fish generally do better with it? A few degrees of water hardness shouldnt make any difference (RO vs tap). Maybe there is something in the tap water that they dont like. Maybe heavy metals or something? As for an alkalinity test....I have no idea if API makes one or not. Hach or LaMotte are going to be your better quality test kits for that (they are more expensive than a normal test kit but are well worth it).

-Ryan