Albino Breeding `Think Tank'

[timmylucas]

Those of us who are attempting to raise albinos are finding that their needs are substantially different from their normal-colored cousins. We, the hobbyists, have yet to learn what it takes to see the fry attach to their albino parents. Bob Tools and I believe it takes a joint effort, and so we are communicating between ourselves what we have tried, heard of, or observed. We'd both like to extend an invitation to any interested albino-keepers to join us in this effort. If you are interested in breeding albinos, if you have tried and failed, or if you have had some success, please share your information with us! We are interested in artificial and fostering methods that involve albino fry as well. You can pm us or post here. All positive developments that arise from this joint effort and the methods used will be posted on this forum.
Martha

Ive heard of people throwing the albino babies into an aquarium with a pair that already has babies. The pair cares for the babies as if they were their own. Never tried it before but ive heard of others doing it

Watch this video. He does it with his lighter colored discus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yomFU...nao5iW&index=3

[OC Discus]

Can anyone provide a link to a breeding chart indicating the predicted % of fry that result from crossing various strains? I saw a reference somewhere to it.

[Wes]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...iscussion-quot
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...tify-an-allele

[OC Discus]

Thanks Wes

[arman]

hey guys.i have some thoughts in my mind and ,well lets share it:
as we know albinoxalbino parenting has its special problems/difficulties in attachment of fries and mucus secretion ..thats obvious but i have 2 questions:
1-if albinism is a recessive gene why, for example a pair of ALSSxAL just produce 100%albino ones(as said in page #19 i guess)?is there any genetic stuff like Penetrance or Epigenetic stuff?and can we conclude mixed albino wrigglers are all Albinos?(albinism re-dominancy hypothesis)
2-how about to choose one of parents a non-albino with a dominant color inheritance in comparison with albinism?e.g(just assume) choose Golden-albino xBSS and see the result?if is there any non-albino baby in the fries or not?if all the babies are again albino we can use the result to complete Our genetic knowledge about dominancy of alles.... but if there were some non-albinos ,then cross the babies with each other in the next generation and get the intermediates....and may get some albinos besides
i think its a little confusing ...but its just an assumption.i gonna get some albino white butterflies and some LSS and BSS and try this theory.before any action,a consultation with you men,will be much more helpful.thnx for the response

[Rod]

hey guys.i have some thoughts in my mind and ,well lets share it:
as we know albinoxalbino parenting has its special problems/difficulties in attachment of fries and mucus secretion ..thats obvious but i have 2 questions:
1-if albinism is a recessive gene why, for example a pair of ALSSxAL just produce 100%albino ones(as said in page #19 i guess)?

Albino is controlled by a recessive gene. The gene will only express in homozygous form, and remains hidden (ie recedes, recessive)in heterozygous form. If it were controlled by a dominant, then expression would be observed in both heterozygous and homozygous form.
As long as you breed albino to albino in each generation, you will always get 100% albinos. You have effectively eliminated the natural gene, and it is no longer part of the its dna.

In the case of the ALSS x AL; Mendels law of independent assortment states that allele pairs separate independently during the formation of gametes. Therefore, traits are transmitted to offspring independently of one another. LSS and L will have no bearing on A in your equation.

is there any genetic stuff like Penetrance or Epigenetic stuff?

Not related to the albino gene specifically, albino in discus appears to be controlled by a single pair of alleles.

and can we conclude mixed albino wrigglers are all Albinos?(albinism re-dominancy hypothesis)

Yes, but as i also stated, there will be no relationship with other aspects of its genotype.

2-how about to choose one of parents a non-albino with a dominant color inheritance in comparison with albinism?e.g(just assume) choose Golden-albino xBSS and see the result?if is there any non-albino baby in the fries or not?if all the babies are again albino we can use the result to complete Our genetic knowledge about dominancy of alles.... but if there were some non-albinos ,then cross the babies with each other in the next generation and get the intermediates....and may get some albinos besides
i think its a little confusing ...but its just an assumption.i gonna get some albino white butterflies and some LSS and BSS and try this theory.before any action,a consultation with you men,will be much more helpful.thnx for the response

If you cross an albino with a non-albino, there will zero albinos resulting.(phenotypically that is, genetically they are heterozygous albino) If you want to transfer a pattern or color onto your albino then you will have to cross, and then carefully map the albino gene and reintroduce when desired.

[arman]

tnx Rod for the precise answers.well im trying to get some albino white butterflies or albino scorpion and do some research to make albino platinum(ofc i know its not as simply as i think!)...anyway tnx alot

[nc0gnet0]

In the case of the ALSS x AL; Mendels law of independent assortment states that allele pairs separate independently during the formation of gametes. Therefore, traits are transmitted to offspring independently of one another. LSS and L will have no bearing on A in your equation.

At least on paper, in real life it does happen, figuring how and why is beyond my grasp.

[Rod]

At least on paper, in real life it does happen, figuring how and why is beyond my grasp.

Can you give me an example of what you mean?

[nc0gnet0]

Can you give me an example of what you mean?

Well, I for one have seen on numerous occasions sex align based on phenotypes. For instance, I cross Fish A(f) with Fish B(m), the result of the cross yields two phenotypes, phenotype 1 and phenotype 2. I have seen it more than once now that phenotype 1 are all female, while phenotype 2 are all male.

Therefore, traits are transmitted to offspring independently of one another. LSS and L will have no bearing on A in your equation.

My example shows a direct contradiction to the above statement, while not dealing with L, LSS, and A, it does illustrate that allele pairs do not always separate independently during the formation of gametes. It certainly seems as if they should, but I have noted several exceptions.

I have also noticed exceptions when dealing with a different combination of genes, more specifically BD, L, and LSS. these are not quite as absolute as my prior example, but the ratios of each phenotype at least seem to suggest recombination is not completely random.

I have no explanation as to why this is the case, I wish it wasn't (just try to find a male GLSS).

-Rick

[Rod]

Well, I for one have seen on numerous occasions sex align based on phenotypes. For instance, I cross Fish A(f) with Fish B(m), the result of the cross yields two phenotypes, phenotype 1 and phenotype 2. I have seen it more than once now that phenotype 1 are all female, while phenotype 2 are all male.

I have also seen sex linkage as you describe in 2 different pairs i had, so i agree it probably is not that rare. Really good solid red male discus may be a case in point . Females are a dime a dozen.....

My example shows a direct contradiction to the above statement, while not dealing with L, LSS, and A, it does illustrate that allele pairs do not always separate independently during the formation of gametes. It certainly seems as if they should, but I have noted several exceptions.

Independent assortment is not concerned with linkage to other traits, it is the single homologous allele pair that is assorting, not the combination of allele pairs. There is no contradiction because they are not overlapping. Allele pairs can link with other pairs, but this does not mean that each pair cannot assort independently within that linkage.


Rod

[nc0gnet0]

Ok another example. I have a snakeskin mercury. It is heterozygous pb, heterozygous SS, homozygous Bd.If I cross it with a non pb 9 bar fish, why is it that almost none of the wild type fry from the cross are 14 bar, yet, with the pigeon blood fry slightly less than 50% are? Using mendels law, one would suspect 50% pigeon SS and 50% wild type SS. While not usually as absolute as the separation by phenotype of the sex's, I can quite often see deviations in the expected outcomes beyond what would be considered normal variation.

Allele pairs can link with other pairs, but this does not mean that each pair cannot assort independently within that linkage.

I think this is where the confusion lies. if they can, and in some particular instances often do link, to me that is not independent assortment. Maybe it's the way this statement is worded that has me stuck.

[Rod]

Why do you think independant assortment cannot work when linkage is involved? My understanding is they are unrelated. How do you think one will have an effect on the other?

[nc0gnet0]

The Law of Independent Assortment speaks of alleles of a gene separating independently from alleles of another gene. Hence, the inheritance pattern of one trait will not affect the inheritance pattern of another.

For instance, the gene for the eye color is inherited independently from the gene for hair color. That is, not all individuals with brown eyes will always have a black hair color; others may still have a different hair color. It is because the gene coding for the eye color separates independently (and randomly) from the gene coding for the hair color during formation of gametes (meiosis).*

What I am saying is, that in some case, the inheritance of once trait does effect the inheritance of the other. If I take a gls male and cross it with a glss female, I should get 50% gls and 50% glss. However, there will be virtually no males in the glss. Now, if we are to call such circumstances as "linkage" isn't that a direct contradiction to the concept?

Not arguing with you Rod , because I know you are right (it is afterall, Mendal's law, not Mendal's theory). What I can't get my head around is that linkage seems to defy Mendal's law.

-Rick




*http://www.biology-online.org/dictio...ent_assortment

[arman]

wow,i take charge of all these arguments to myself
here is some facts that i know from the genetic course in the school of med:
1-Mendelian inheritance ,rules just some genes in the reality.well independent assortment is the most challenge-able rule Mendele'd announced.there is a gene processing sequence in the cell during meiosis that Guarantees variety of Species its called the holy Jesus Crossing Over.which is the ability of genetic system to break some parts of DNA(splicing)and sticks them again in a new arrangement w/o any deleterious effect on cell survival.as a matter of fact its a new gene arrangement.means new phenotype which may never been observe in the ancestors.
2-crossing over which occurs usually in creatures (vertebrates specially) depends of some facts including the distance of 2 separate linked genes:the farther they are the more susceptible they are to cross over.the identity of gene sequences matters and the distance if we gonna make it simply...we have a term Centi-Morghan unit which is the number of nucleotide pairs(e.g 1000k base pairs) which increases the probability of crossing over by 1%...so in the presence of crossing over the Linked genes can break easily and the DO .its not a rare event.in the case of fishes..the breeders who created new mutations ,unintentionally Enrich some genes with susceptible DNA sequences which new mutations occured.e.g intensity of brown made less and red was created.pattern or red turq broken and snakeskin was born..just examples.
3-some genes are set is Sex-chromosomes.i think the matter which was said all the glss were males maybe depenent of this or even not.as i have heared from a breeder they believe a female LSS in comparison with a male LSS has a better influence of LSS special pattern.this matter can be a other side of the coin about sex-chromosome inheritance .all must be considered.i forgot to add something to the above that some genes on other chromosome can inhibit the expression of the other gens.e.g u got 1 X chromosome and 1 Y chromosome in a man(its Klein-Felter syndrome) but the man is a Male one because a gene called SRY and TDF inhibits the female genes of X chromosome...infact its a equation of Dominancy.

there is much about these talks and i think it maybe boring to people reading the topic.
i hope my comment clarify some aspects of the genetic.thanks for your time
Arman the junior