Water Quality = Confusion? Maybe...

[Tito]

I've kept all sorts of fish. Fresh and salt. But....

LOL

When it comes to Discus - I get the feeling this term "water quality" is like the mysterious Shroud of Turin.

Water Quality is thrown out in almost every Discus discussion. But what does it mean? For instance...in salt water, water quality will entail (for starters) pH, salinity, of course ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, then there's calcium, strongtium and so on. For African Cichlids there's gh, kh, pH, and (copy and paste) ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Same goes for brackish water fish, and so on and so on.

Sooooo.....drum roll please....

What exactly is meant by "water quality" when it comes to Discus. I'll provide an example:
Someone will say "do 50% water changes daily for water quality". Or, I do 100% daily water changes.

But what exactly is it that is being accomplished?
Are we keeping nitrates down? Phosphates down? Also, if you have a tank with an established filter (in my case three) I would imagine that ammonia and nitrite would not be an issue at all, then would not the established filter or filters maintain good water quality? Is thre something I'm missing? I mean - what is it - that is being aimed at? Water chemistry is the basic understanding that all hobbyist must come around to learning to keep a healthy tank. So once we learn about it and how to maintain it - I would imagine that we all keep good water quality. Yet so many Discus keepers make this issue the number one subject in keeping, breeding and raising Discus. But again I ask...what exactly about the water's quality is it that we are trying to keep optimal?

I just have this gut feeling that the "water quality" emphasis applies more to bare bottom tanks that have a sponge or two and have 100% of the water removed...I would imagine that this type of husbandry put's a hurting on the biological bacteria due to the constant interuption.

I don't think water quality=lots of big water changes for well established tanks with power filters and cansiters filters as well as substrate. In this kind of environment there is plenty of biological fauna to maintain excellent water quality.

Also might I not leave out - nutrients. Are nutrients in the water harmful to Discus? Being that when growing them out with so many feedings ther is bound to be a lot of nutirents in the water.

I'm definitely interested to see responses for my topic.

Thanks!

[Daniella]

I am wondering the same thing. I know a woman who does only one water change per month and her discus are healthy, big and they are even laying eggs often. Worse is that she has 7 adult discus in a 35 gallon tank!

I would not do that but also wondering about all this.

I've kept all sorts of fish. Fresh and salt. But....

LOL

When it comes to Discus - I get the feeling this term "water quality" is like the mysterious Shroud of Turin.

Water Quality is thrown out in almost every Discus discussion. But what does it mean? For instance...in salt water, water quality will entail (for starters) pH, salinity, of course ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, then there's calcium, strongtium and so on. For African Cichlids there's gh, kh, pH, and (copy and paste) ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Same goes for brackish water fish, and so on and so on.

Sooooo.....drum roll please....

What exactly is meant by "water quality" when it comes to Discus. I'll provide an example:
Someone will say "do 50% water changes daily for water quality". Or, I do 100% daily water changes.

But what exactly is it that is being accomplished?
Are we keeping nitrates down? Phosphates down? Also, if you have a tank with an established filter (in my case three) I would imagine that ammonia and nitrite would not be an issue at all, then would not the established filter or filters maintain good water quality? Is thre something I'm missing? I mean - what is it - that is being aimed at? Water chemistry is the basic understanding that all hobbyist must come around to learning to keep a healthy tank. So once we learn about it and how to maintain it - I would imagine that we all keep good water quality. Yet so many Discus keepers make this issue the number one subject in keeping, breeding and raising Discus. But again I ask...what exactly about the water's quality is it that we are trying to keep optimal?

I just have this gut feeling that the "water quality" emphasis applies more to bare bottom tanks that have a sponge or two and have 100% of the water removed...I would imagine that this type of husbandry put's a hurting on the biological bacteria due to the constant interuption.

I don't think water quality=lots of big water changes for well established tanks with power filters and cansiters filters as well as substrate. In this kind of environment there is plenty of biological fauna to maintain excellent water quality.

Also might I not leave out - nutrients. Are nutrients in the water harmful to Discus? Being that when growing them out with so many feedings ther is bound to be a lot of nutirents in the water.

I'm definitely interested to see responses for my topic.

Thanks!

[kaceyo]

Hey Tito,
IMO the emphasis on water quality for discus has alot to do with keeping pathogen levels very low, as well as the things you mentioned taht are common to all aquarium keeping. Discus tend to be more susceptible to some pathogens than most other fish are, so it's more criticle to keep the water quality very high and the pathogens numbers low.
Where growing out juvies is concerned, there are also the large quantities of food and waste to deal with, which will foul the water and effect their health and growth in a hurry if water quality isn't kept high.
I'm sure others can explain it better than I but that's the jist of it.

Kacey

[Tito]

Hey Tito,
IMO the emphasis on water quality for discus has alot to do with keeping pathogen levels very low, as well as the things you mentioned taht are common to all aquarium keeping. Discus tend to be more susceptible to some pathogens than most other fish are, so it's more criticle to keep the water quality very high and the pathogens numbers low.
Where growing out juvies is concerned, there are also the large quantities of food and waste to deal with, which will foul the water and effect their health and growth in a hurry if water quality isn't kept high.
I'm sure others can explain it better than I but that's the jist of it.

Kacey

That makes sense. Of course....Pathogens have to be introduced. That brings in the question of what is beeing fed to rush the growth. But I guess that's another topic.

[Don Trinko]

You have asked the $64,000 question. To the best of my limmited knowledge there is no scientific answer to your question.
This results in Water change routines anywhere from 100% twice a day to 10% everyso often. IMO; These routines are based on personal experience.
There are a lot of factors effecting WC. Bioload, age of fish , feedings and many more.
WC is one discus subject that the only thing 2 discus keepers agree on is that the 3rd discus keeper is wrong.
Search for WC and you will find many opinions. All of this Imo; Don T.

[Tito]

You have asked the $64,000 question. To the best of my limmited knowledge there is no scientific answer to your question.
This results in Water change routines anywhere from 100% twice a day to 10% everyso often. IMO; These routines are based on personal experience.
There are a lot of factors effecting WC. Bioload, age of fish , feedings and many more.
WC is one discus subject that the only thing 2 discus keepers agree on is that the 3rd discus keeper is wrong.
Search for WC and you will find many opinions. All of this Imo; Don T.

Thank you Don for the afirmation. That's what I have been thinking but I don't want to insult or start a problem. Seems like a few times my remarks in this forum have been taking wrongly but....all esle aside...you hit it on the nose I think. Depends on experiences. What I also think is that some people dive straight into Discus, buy Discus books, join a Discus forum and walla - you have the typical statement made "change water every day".

When I see that sort of thing it somewaht confuses me - honestly. Because I have kept marine, african, central american, south american, community, heck only group of fish I have not kept is brackish. And to me - water quality for all of them has always meant a good biological and mechanical filtration system. When I see clear water and it smells fresh to the nose - I know I have good water quality. Without even measuring I know my numbers are right. As for the specifics - high pH fot Tanganyikans or low pH for soft water fish or calcium for corals, etc etc you know what I mean - those are what I call specifics because each group comes with it's own demands. But as for "Water Quality" my interpretation of that is simple. By product of waste is mimimun - this means low Nitrate reading - ammonia and nitrite should always be 0 and water clarity should be clear and particulate matter free. That is my understanding of good water quality. Unless specifics are mentioned they are not discussed and somoe are a given depending on what creature you are keeping in your aquarium.

[Mr Wild]

Tito
I think your signature says it all! But thanks for asking the question as I think you "said out loud" what many people have been asking themselves! LOL Cheers mate.

[Tito]

Tito
I think your signature says it all! But thanks for asking the question as I think you "said out loud" what many people have been asking themselves! LOL Cheers mate.

LOL

Honest to goodness - it really drives me crazy when I see all those post about thease massive water changes and water quality. I felt like, um, what did I miss all this time - I thought I knew what I was doing. LOL LOL

[Mr Wild]

Well I have always been limited by the fact we are on tank water so changing out 100's of litres is just not feasable for me so I have always taken the approach, keep clean filters and over filter if I can and I still do 1/3 change per week same as I used to for my fancy goldies. I also watch what I feed and I have a little battery operated syphon that I use for my juvies to get any uneaten food out during the day if I have overfed. BN's take care of the big tank, I think you just have to think about!

[discussmith]

The large WC practice came from many large breeder operations who were heavily stocking tanks with fish they were feeding for fast growth as they price based on size. It is the experience of most that discus while very hardy are susceptible to dissolved organic compounds from fish waste and uneaten food. This is more so with young fish and no amount of filtration is as efficient as water changes in insuring success raising discus. One has to determine what stocking level is possible for the water change regimen one is able to do. What tends to happen is once one has some discus and they grow into well colored good size fish they tend to want more and start pushing the envelope.

[Tito]

The large WC practice came from many large breeder operations who were heavily stocking tanks with fish they were feeding for fast growth as they price based on size. It is the experience of most that discus while very hardy are susceptible to dissolved organic compounds from fish waste and uneaten food. This is more so with young fish and no amount of filtration is as efficient as water changes in insuring success raising discus. One has to determine what stocking level is possible for the water change regimen one is able to do. What tends to happen is once one has some discus and they grow into well colored good size fish they tend to want more and start pushing the envelope.

Still even with this being said, all that I see in this scenario is a large Nitrate buildup - which is harmful to all fish if not removed.

This is why I brought the subject up for discussion. Because I really think that a lot of Discus keepers are just following the leader without really knowing why they are following. Just that they know to do lots of water changes.

Water is primarily changed in aquariums because of nitrate buildup. Of course organics (nutrients) will build up as well and that is a secondary reason for water changes. However, carbon can be used to reduced organics but carbon will not remove nitrate. Reinforcing my statement - that water is changed primarily because of nitrate buildup - a long term poison to fish.

[discussmith]

Many do know this and many may not but do it because they were told to and had success doing so. You can't argue with that. Also many here don't use carbon as they fear it may remove beneficial water elements and also have no idea when it is used up and no longer doing anything but supporting the bio filter so again depend on water changes to remove or dilute unwanted compounds. I find no fault with someone who leaves this hobby because they realized they lost fish because they just could not keep up with the water changes necessary for them to have success. I also cannot question or criticize someone who has 4 discus in a 90 gal. tank and change 50% or more of the water every day and is happy because their fish are happy and healthy whether they understand water chemistry or not.

[Tito]

Many do know this and many may not but do it because they were told to and had success doing so. You can't argue with that. Also many here don't use carbon as they fear it may remove beneficial water elements and also have no idea when it is used up and no longer doing anything but supporting the bio filter so again depend on water changes to remove or dilute unwanted compounds. I find no fault with someone who leaves this hobby because they realized they lost fish because they just could not keep up with the water changes necessary for them to have success. I also cannot question or criticize someone who has 4 discus in a 90 gal. tank and change 50% or more of the water every day and is happy because their fish are happy and healthy whether they understand water chemistry or not.

I agree with you on your comment. I for one do not use chemicals for filtration.

With that being said...one who keeps fish outght to know the fundamentals of the nitrogen cycle. As I'm sure most folks here know it. But the angle I'm coming from is why keep the culture alive? The culture of making statements about water quality and water changes with no real substance behind the claims. I can tell you that the average marine coral and fish hobbyist will get pretty deep in water chemistry discussions. kind of the way some Discus keepers get real deep with microbes and microscopes.

And I believe what I am also trying to say here is that I have done nothing vastly different in keeping my water quality good and Discus healthy then I have done for any other fish I have kept.

[discussmith]

But you're talking apples and oranges as reefers would love to be able to just change water without the cost of salt just like I would love to have a protein skimmer to grab D O C's before they enter the water column and not have to change water as often.

[Chad Hughes]

Tito,

From all that I read and my experience, all I can confidently say is that most change huge amounts of water for two reasons.


1. They have huge amounts of fish in a small voume of water. It would make sense to change huge amounts of water.

2. Some people believe that there is some mysterious growth inhibitor that discus emit. Naturally you want to remove this through water changes.

Most take the stance, that if you are beginning in discus and have little or no knowledge about water chemistry, then changing water in large volumes at a high frequency is the way to go. I can understand that. For those of us that have a better working understanding of how the captive aquarium works there's better methods to optimum aquaria health.

I guess the biggest point of misunderstanding is who is the one with the knowledge and who isn't. Do you feel that you have a good understanding of aquaria water chemistry? If so, move forward with your knowledge. If you have doubts, then maybe large water changes are your best option. It's a matter of opinion and confidence level IMO.

I try and maintain the most balanced ecosystems that I can and have had great success with minimal water changes, perfectly clear "0" parameter water, and no disease. I don't wish to change something that works. Do I recommend that to just anyone? No.

Hope that didn't confuse anyone!

Best wishes!