Water Quality = Confusion? Maybe...

[Jhhnn]

First off, I don't think that using aged, conditioned and aerated water for daily changes actually harms the bio-community at all. Yeh, sure, it'll exist at a somewhat lower level than with less frequent changes, simply because more water changes mean less food for bacteria...

Young discus need huge quantities of food if they're to grow out properly. Even with really good biofilters, nitrate levels will become unacceptably high w/o the means to remove them- either water changes or live plants or a combination of both.

My own discus tank is a good example. I have a bare bottom 125 tall tank, which works out to an actual 105gal of water. I'm running 4 of the hydroIII sponge filters, and have another as the prefilter on a cascade 1000 canister, packed with foam and ceramic rings.

The 8 fish were obtained at ~3-3/4" to 4" TL from Kenny on April 4 of this year. The largest now exceed 5", with even the smallest not far behind. I feed 4-5 times a day, with chunks of frozen brine shrimp, mysis, bloodworms, beefheart or eddie's seafood mix. Each feeding is a chunk ~1-1/4" square, and the thickness that usually comes in the 16oz flatpacks. That's a lot of food, and a huge bioload.

I'm getting ready to do their usual 50% daily water change/ vacuuming, and just tested the water with my seachem kits. Free ammonia 0, Total ammonia just a hint of color, Nitrites 0, Nitrates ~20ppm...

And that's the worst I let it get wrt nitrates. If I didn't do such large and frequent water changes, nitrates would obviously soar to unacceptable levels with that much food. And they love to eat, basically leaving nothing behind except the flakes in the seafood mix, which is their fave nonetheless, and the last feeding before the water change.

I want 6"-7" fish, and if that doesn't happen in the first year, it'll never happen. And it's not just an issue of length, but rather of mass, with 7" fish likely having ~ twice the weight of 5" fish...

I strongly suspect that growing out something like blue knights to their true potential of 8"-9" would require even more food and more water...

[Eddie]

First, I don't think newbies are the only people doing massive waterchanges. The majority, if not all of the experts, do massive water changes.

Everybody has their opinion on what is required or what they can do just to get by.

It will always boil down to size of tank, stocking levels, age of fish, foods you feed, how often you feed, water chemistry. Because this is a variable for everyone, no one person has the same exact set-up. When I say water chemistry, that is the water make-up in regards to KH, GH and what it is that is in the water that gives those numbers.

So you see....nobody can say one way is the only way. Which you will find, is not too common. You'll mainly find the alot of people leaning towards performing alot of water changes.

As far as those who have grown fish out from fry to adult in a tank that received minimal waterchanges, I have yet to see one. And those who actually say they have, do not ever have proof (comments like, I don't need to show my fish to prove it). I'm sorry but proof is only proved by positive results. They will always show you an adult fish, without any kind of a timeline on the effects of waterchanges or lack there of.

This is why Chad's way will be very interesting and although there is less waterchanged, the average discus keeper is not going to get an ozonizer for the purposes of water conservation. Now if this method works, there will probably be alot more hobbyists looking into these type of systems. As so far, Chad's fish are growing right along those individual's who are doing daily WCs. I'll have to say, it's quite amazing and those are the results I am talking about.

[Tito]

Seems like most here know what they are doing. Great comments much appreciated.

I know that if someone asked me, hey why are you doing so many water changes or why are you changing water, or why 50% water change. My answer would not be....because they will grow quicker, or because the fish will love it, or the fish will grow to 9". I think these are empty answers with no real substance.

Answers to question like that require more specifics. I'm change water because my nitrate levels are too high. I'm changing water because there are too many nutirents in the water - see the million MTS on the sand, wood and glass. I'm changing water because it looks yellow like pee. I'm changing water because phosphates are too high - see all the brown algea (diatoms) on the glass.

in other words - I think hobbyist (especially newbies) need those kinds of answers. That way they can investigate more and learn more.

Otherwise what you get is a hobbyist that learns to just change water for their Discus and they in turn post 100 threads in a Discus forum about doing massive water changes daily but providing no real reason why. LOL

I detected this when I read a few threads that revealed certain hobbyist have only kept Discus and no other fish. That IMO has kept them to a real narrow experience in fish keeping as well as matching husbandry in fish keeping.

That there are variables goes without saying - life is a big bowl of variables. But that doesn't mean that a fella like me can't decide one day to create a thread that would hopefully help a Discus only fish keeper (the housewife that saw them somewhere and decided to just keep them) to learn why she is doing the water changes.

So I dedicate this thread to the Housewife who has a name for all of her Discus and changes their water every single day.

Edit: BTW I don't believe there is any proof that the guy changing 100% water everyday does better with his fish then the guy changing 50% every three days. Because like some of you have mentioned every tank is different. It's the very reason why I created this thread. Every tank is different - this is why it is best that we know why we are changing water. Knowing why leads to knowing when and how much as well.

LOL

Thanks everyone for your comments and opinions. Much appreciated. Since their was nothing scientific about this we shouldn't get so caught up in it...but I beleive the mystery of the Shourd of Turin has been uncovered.

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

There is a theory about conductivity and the fishes osmoregulatory system that was passed down to me by an old time discus breeder from Chicago not too long ago (water chem guru). To make it short, the longer the water is in the tank, the higher the conductivity goes. Discus osmoregulatory system doesnt like this gradual climb and to maintain the lower conductivity we do water changes to bring it back to normal. You basically base your water change schedule on the conductivity readings (when conductivity increase 150% over base number, do water change). There is much more to this theory but it is much too involved for me to type right now. I intend to test these theories here very shortly when we get into normal production at the greenhouse.

-Ryan

[kaceyo]

It makes alot more sense than the growth inhibitor hormones. At least it seems more plausible.

Kacey

[Roxanne]

...I thought discussmith nailed it well...

...the other variable is the quality or condition of the fish you aquire. If you have a disease outbreak you end up doing massive, constant WC's to either get meds out, in preparation to medicate, or lower pathogen count in order to get control of the "water quality" and therefore the health of the fish...

Everyone's source water is different also which can be directly related to the frequency and volume of WC's..... (or laziness of the fish keeper)...In my case, ph starts bouncing after three days in the tank, very soft, but prone to crash if I don't buffer with CC.....Massive WC's are not possible for everyone, and your question, I think, is why do some do so well without them is a valid one, it's just that there are so many variables. But, you can't argue with the size the Japanese are getting with their fish through daily 100% water changes..maybe it's easier than cleaning filters lol....pathogens would barely have a chance to take hold and destroy what by comparison to the average hobbyists, would be entire hatcheries...

I've owned all kinds of fish, I've found discus are easy to keep IF they are not diseased to start with...

Roxanne

[Tito]

There is a theory about conductivity and the fishes osmoregulatory system that was passed down to me by an old time discus breeder from Chicago not too long ago (water chem guru). To make it short, the longer the water is in the tank, the higher the conductivity goes. Discus osmoregulatory system doesnt like this gradual climb and to maintain the lower conductivity we do water changes to bring it back to normal. You basically base your water change schedule on the conductivity readings (when conductivity increase 150% over base number, do water change). There is much more to this theory but it is much too involved for me to type right now. I intend to test these theories here very shortly when we get into normal production at the greenhouse.

-Ryan

Now we're talking!

And Roxanne I really like your answer as well

[YSS]

Cleaner water is better for the fish, discus or not. Larger water changes provide cleaner environment for the fish than small water changes. Not too difficult to understand. I think every fish keeper knows that.

[jerbear]

Cleaner water is better for the fish, discus or not. Larger water changes provide cleaner environment for the fish than small water changes. Not too difficult to understand. I think every fish keeper knows that.

I believe Tito raises a valid question. What is consider “clean” and where is the threshold that unclean water would hinder the health and growth of the fish? Of course, I and may others don’t what to find out where that threshold is on our own so we follow the pack with frequent, massive water changes without really knowing if it is needed. I don’t know if there is actually an easy answer but look forward to hearing more from Ryan and watching Chad's progress.

[kaceyo]

Cleaner water is better for the fish, discus or not. Larger water changes provide cleaner environment for the fish than small water changes. Not too difficult to understand. I think every fish keeper knows that.

Regardless of the reasons behind it, anyone who has actually raised discus both ways, with infrequent wc's and daily wc's, can see the benifits in growth rate, improved shape, and health of the fish in general. Are daily wc's a requirment? Of course not. Will it increase your chances of success and make a difference in the end results? Absolutly.
Alot depends on what you want to get out of it and your level of satisfaction with your fish. Some want to have a tank with a few nice, healthy discus. Others want to see the best and biggest discus they could possibly get.
Personally, I like to go for the biggest and best I can make them. And I'm really looking forward to Ryan's project answering some questions we all have about the best way to do that

Kacey

[Don Trinko]

What is "clean water" and how clean does it have to be for healthy discus?
When you visit other peoples houses you see a variety of "cleanliness" yet most families are healthy. Some people keep their garbage can in the kitchen, others outside. We had an exchange student who took several showers every day. My kids just took one and maybee not every day.
My point is that their is probably a range of conditions that discus do well in and even giving them near perfect conditions does not insure you will have the bigest, pretiest discus. There is however a point of "unclean" that your discus will probably get sick eventualy and not do as well. Where is the point? I don't know. All of this IMO; Don T.

[DiscusOnly]

I know it may not give you an exact answer but NADA has a very good writeup on caring for discus.

http://www.discusnada.org/discus/care.html

Just remember that discus is not your garden variety fresh water fish. From my experience, keeping in line with the basics of the articles is a good way to keep healthy discus regardless of it's size (stunted or not).

In my opinion. Anyone with no prior experience in keeping fish should not start with Discus. Discus are hardy if the are healthy in a clean environment. Neglect the tank and spook a discus and see what happen.

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

That's interesting; considering that the physiology of the fish is designed to be in low everything water there may may be something to this...start testing

Not to derail the thread any, but go to this link and download the May newsletter. In it you will find Joe Gargas give a fairly large write up about himself and about conductivity, osmoregulation, etc....it is good reading material.

http://www.tbas1.com/TBASpages/newsletter.html

-Ryan

[Tito]

Not to derail the thread any, but go to this link and download the May newsletter. In it you will find Joe Gargas give a fairly large write up about himself and about conductivity, osmoregulation, etc....it is good reading material.

http://www.tbas1.com/TBASpages/newsletter.html

-Ryan

Thanks! I enjoyed that article. Since I have kept salt water fish and Tangayikans before - I was familiar with many of the terms he used.

[Jhhnn]

I think one of the things potential discus keepers need to have together is a water changing plan and the means to carry it out, whether that's along the lines of Chad's or my own, or something in between. It's all too easy to let it go when it's a tiresome chore.

Having kept discus years ago, I knew that I wanted to make it easy w/o spending a fortune to do so. Back then, I really only had the ability to change 25% of the water 2 or 3 times/week with a rather laborious process involving moving around a lot of hose... I really fell into the current 50% daily change routine through a combination of circumstances, starting with the used 125gal tank and a blue 55gal aging drum. As a homeowner, I had the freedom to put the barrel in the cellar, plumb to it, create a passage to pump water up to the tank, and to create two drainage systems- one to the sewer, and one to the yard. After a bit of trial and error, I marked the tank where the contents of the barrel refill it completely- that's my mark where I siphon to. Risk of overfilling thru inattention is zero. It takes a trip or two to the cellar for the process, which is actually a good thing- my cellar workshop cleanliness has benefitted tremendously, because I need to be there to start/stop the fill cycle on the barrel after the tank fill cycle ends, reconnect the barrel heater. I'm distrustful of float valves...

I'm setting up a used 75gal reef tank to house more of Kenny's fish, and I'll probably just change 50gal/ day in that tank, (2/3 vs 1/2) as well- I have all the stuff to set it up that way, and it's too easy not to do so.

The increase in my water bill is basically immaterial- I only pay $1.91/1000 gals up to 22K gals/month, with current usage being 17K gals/month- actually pretty frugal for a family of 4...

I suspect that I may want to re-evaluate if I expand my tankspace even more, probably increasing my ability to drain more tanks simultaneously, maybe change water less often, probably introduce some floating plants...

For now, it seems to work well w/o a huge amount of fuss, so I'll stick with it. Given the investment in livestock, I figure it's best to err on the side of caution.

I will admit that my tank wasn't properly cycled when I took possession of the fish, and that it was my only tank at the time, so nitrites tried to spike very strongly. I used a little extra prime, added some salt, and sometimes changed 50% of the water twice daily to control that until the biofilter became firmly established...