Water Quality = Confusion? Maybe...

[Eddie]

Tito, do what works well for you and that's all that matters. If you are happy with your fish than be happy with them.

Eddie

[Tito]

Tito, do what works well for you and that's all that matters. If you are happy with your fish than be happy with them.

Eddie

Um...ok Ed, thanks.

And if you want to change 100% of your water everyday by all means don't let anyone stop you. LOL

But I didn't start this thread to change anyone's regime..... just to have clarity on a term that I feel is being thrown all over the place without substantial backing.

[Eddie]

Um...ok Ed, thanks.

And if you want to change 100% of your water everyday by all means don't let anyone stop you. LOL

But I didn't start this thread to change anyone's regime..... just to have clarity on a term that I feel is being thrown all over the place without substantial backing.

Um, yeah thats right, 100% works very well for me and if my fish don't turn out the way I want them too, its all my fault, not anyone elses.

Eddie

[Tito]

Um, yeah thats right, 100% works very well for me and if my fish don't turn out the way I want them too, its all my fault, not anyone elses.

Eddie

Eddie,

Have you ever considered that the fish will turn out as nature intended them to? Their genetic makup will largely do what it will do automatically.

If you kept poor water quality and fed the fish minimally - there is a good chance the fish wont develop well.

So really, as long as we provided an ample supply of quality food and along with maintaining the required water parameters for good health - the fish will turn out just fine.

That fish will become spectacular through feeding the finest ingredients and providing super fresh tap water every day - really I think that's up in the air. I would say that there are are folks here who say their Discus turned out ok in a planted tank and others who say their Discus turn out ok in a bare bottom tank - along with the various water changing regimes. So, ther is no one way of doing it.

but again, to flat out say - change this amount this often - and make it a rule without a scientific reason is just an opinion.

[Eddie]

Eddie,

Have you ever considered that the fish will turn out as nature intended them to? Their genetic makup will largely do what it will do automatically.

If you kept poor water quality and fed the fish minimally - there is a good chance the fish wont develop well.

So really, as long as we provided an ample supply of quality food and along with maintaining the required water parameters for good health - the fish will turn out just fine.

That fish will become spectacular through feeding the finest ingredients and providing super fresh tap water every day - really I think that's up in the air. I would say that there are are folks here who say their Discus turned out ok in a planted tank and others who say their Discus turn out ok in a bare bottom tank - along with the various water changing regimes. So, ther is no one way of doing it.

but again, to flat out say - change this amount this often - and make it a rule without a scientific reason is just an opinion.

Guess you couldn't read any of the past posts about there not being a complete and no different requirement about changing water. Go back and re-read some of the responses, not one person said you had to do anything.

Its okay if you feel the way you do, just be honest with yourself.

Eddie

[Tito]

Guess you couldn't read any of the past posts about there not being a complete and no different requirement about changing water. Go back and re-read some of the responses, not one person said you had to do anything.

Its okay if you feel the way you do, just be honest with yourself.

Eddie

Ok Eddie - not sure where this is going so I think I'll have to pull off the road here. To each his own is clear no doubt about that - I do understand.

What angle are you coming from not really sure at this point. This thread was created to get responses from hobbyist about the usage of water changes and how hobbyist just flat out recomend them with frequency and volume but offering no real science behind the advice. I can tell you that when I initially created this thread - with all honesty - YOU were the last person on my mind. In fact - you weren't even on my mind. So if I stepped on a toe - sorry but I was reflecting on a couple of threads I have read and I felt like writing this thread.

Again - time for me to pull off the road here since I'm feelin a little heat LOL

[Eddie]

Ok Eddie - not sure where this is going so I think I'll have to pull off the road here. To each his own is clear no doubt about that - I do understand.

What angle are you coming from not really sure at this point. This thread was created to get responses from hobbyist about the usage of water changes and how hobbyist just flat out recomend them with frequency and volume but offering no real science behind the advice. I can tell you that when I initially created this thread - with all honesty - YOU were the last person on my mind. In fact - you weren't even on my mind. So if I stepped on a toe - sorry but I was reflecting on a couple of threads I have read and I felt like writing this thread.

Again - time for me to pull off the road here since I'm feelin a little heat LOL

Sounds like a good idea, I was actually going to recommend a PM to work it out. Any time you want further the discussion, please PM. We are all talking about the same thing, changing water.

TTYS,

Eddie

[DiscusOnly]

That fish will become spectacular through feeding the finest ingredients and providing super fresh tap water every day - really I think that's up in the air. I would say that there are are folks here who say their Discus turned out ok in a planted tank and others who say their Discus turn out ok in a bare bottom tank - along with the various water changing regimes. So, ther is no one way of doing it.

There is a wide range of what is "OK". Everyone expectation differs so they apply different methods. The expection of a "good" discus is much higher among discus hobbyist on this site than someone who just keep fish.

Are the folks who do these massive WC over doing it? Probably.. They could probably scale back but to what point? That's for each individual to decide. Telling someone to "over do" and then scale back is much better than to start the other way.

[Eddie]

There is a wide range of what is "OK". Everyone expectation differs so they apply different methods. The expection of a "good" discus is much higher among discus hobbyist on this site than someone who just keep fish.

Are the folks who do these massive WC over doing it? Probably.. They could probably scale back but to what point? That's for each individual to decide. Telling someone to "over do" and then scale back is much better than to start the other way.

Van, you are very correct, where is the line drawn to get maximum potential in growth. Alot of that really depends on what was stated before, there are so many variables that come into play. Hell, I'd like to think that I overdo water changes, but to be honest, I myself don't think I do enough by the way I stock and the way I feed. Now those are just my opinions and what I think is best for the development of my fish.

Good point Van!

Eddie

[Tito]

There is a wide range of what is "OK". Everyone expectation differs so they apply different methods. The expection of a "good" discus is much higher among discus hobbyist on this site than someone who just keep fish.

Are the folks who do these massive WC over doing it? Probably.. They could probably scale back but to what point? That's for each individual to decide. Telling someone to "over do" and then scale back is much better than to start the other way.

I agree.

Again, if I have a "bone" to pick it's the mass use of water changes (especially the frequency and volume) but many a times (too many a times) no real science is offered. Just seems because it's a Discus Forum as a specialty that those kinds of advice are pretty heavy handed here. So I wanted to fish for some explanations as to why. Several responses here were pretty good. At least there was some science offered to research and investigate.

You have to see it from my perspective to appreciate the spirit of the thread.

I have kept all kinds of fish (am I perfect - hardly) have I exposed myself and increased my experience with various fish...um, yea. So when I read these kinds of water change recomendations (and out of all the forums I have frequented) I can definitely say that they seem to be exclusive to this forum......well, my red flags go up. That's all really.

Edit: I should say as well that I'm satisfied with some of the previous answers. Thanks to those who provided them - there was certainly logic behind the explanations. After a while you get tired of hearing the same thing over and over again without getting any real detail as to why one should follow the recomendation - at least scientific detail versus claims or hearsay.

[Eddie]

I agree.

Again, if I have a "bone" to pick it's the mass use of water changes (especially the frequency and volume) but many a times (too many a times) no real science is offered. Just seems because it's a Discus Forum as a specialty that those kinds of advice are pretty heavy handed here. So I wanted to fish for some explanations as to why. Several responses here were pretty good. At least there was some science offered to research and investigate.

You have to see it from my perspective to appreciate the spirit of the thread.

I have kept all kinds of fish (am I perfect - hardly) have I exposed myself and increased my experience with various fish...um, yea. So when I read these kinds of water change recomendations (and out of all the forums I have frequented) I can definitely say that they seem to be exclusive to this forum......well, my red flags go up. That's all really.

You bring up good points Tito and I am not just a follower, I have kept my fair share of freshwater aq fish, since I was youngin. In reading many books on the requirements of Discus, I learned more than anything, that water quality was number one. How that water quality is met, well, there are many different ways. Easiest and probably the cheapest for "SOME" is by mechanically or manually removing the water in its entirety. As done by some breeders in Malaysia, only water changed, without filtration at all. Then you go into the another breeders set-up, take Mr. Danziger. He only changes 10% of the water in his hatchery and feeds only Tetrabits. Now he has a killer filtration system and uses a massive UV in combination. His fish are gorgeous and large, well proportioned. Its all down to how you handle the water quality, there are so many ways.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...614#post543614

Eddie

[CBZOO]

Tito,
I REALLY agree with you I used to be a waer chemist on a Nuclear Submarine so I know a Little bit about water quality and testing .. I have kept various kinds of fish for many years... That said I belive that wiht todays modern filters, modern comercial fish food and most of all Modern domesticated Discus they can be kept quite happy with a "normal" W/C routine.. Istarted a thread in another forum to get this type of discusion going.. I have to admit I was a little it put off about trying to have this discusion on this forum. I have to admire you for starting to at least question the whole W/C religion that discus keepers have on their home forum.... If you start out with larger 2" plus discus and keep a good clean water suppluy I belive you can keep this fish healthy and happy... Now raising fry and spawning sucessfully are two different subjects. Just as they are with other fish sucessfully spawning and raising fry are a completly diferent subjet... The gist of my other post onthe other forum was that I belive that there are alot of fish keepers out there who would like to keep discus but are put off about the high maitenance that is put forward on this and other forums... If discus can sucessfully raise these fish in a variety of manners then it logically goes to the point that they can "thrive" in a wide range of parameters...
However we have also all seen pictures of stunted fish grown by fish keepers who do not really understand what discus require...
High quality fish food, Clean water (minimal nitrates, no amonium/Nitrites achived by proper filtration, plants, and W/C's) and most importantly proper tank mates!!! These fish are not agressive feeders and this needs to be taken into account. Just my 2 cents take it for what it cost you...

[Eddie]

Edit: I should say as well that I'm satisfied with some of the previous answers. Thanks to those who provided them - there was certainly logic behind the explanations. After a while you get tired of hearing the same thing over and over again without getting any real detail as to why one should follow the recomendation - at least scientific detail versus claims or hearsay.

I didn't really see any research posted but if you want some good books Tito, I can point a few out. They are really in depth on the water requirements for discus and the importance of both filtration and water changes.

Shoot me a PM if you are interested

Eddie

[Don Trinko]

I'm a 50% twice a week wc guy but I do realize that this does not apply to raising fry....So I think 100% daily is neccisary for fry and probably up to 1.5 to 2" size. Many breeders violate the "1 disus per 10g " guide and this would also explain why large daily wc are neccisary for them. I do not question that these wc routines work. I wish that there was a scientific method for wc but it apears that there is not.
I confess that I have never raised a batch of discus from eggs. All of mine started at 2" or more. I have raised angels and Bettas and I have had fish since the mid 1950's. Most of my fish live a long time. I have a black fin tetra that is over 8 years old and cory's over 6. Don T.

[Eddie]

Just a portion of one of Al's posts, that may not be scientific enough for some, it is for me.

Post #51

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...t=68836&page=4

Water changes may have attained some religious status among discus keepers.. but even myths are based in facts if you dig deep enough...and though it may be a myth to some that frequent water changes are necessary to raise big, healthy , well developed discus....its a fact that water changes remove accumumated waste, decrease parasite numbers, allow for intensive feedings associated with good Growth and developement of Discus.. How much to change varies depending on tanks, equipment, water parameters, and hobbyists goals and experiences. My biggest problem with when people say that water changes aren't needed is that the hobbyists new to all this usually wind up paying the price when they follow that line of thinking as "advised"... Doing water changes isn't a guarantee that you'll raise great fish...but it really helps as a starting point by removing variables that more experienced Hobbyists take for granted, IMO.

So theres my 2 Cents on water changes and discus....and yes..I change water here.

hth,
al...doing water changes as I type