Final result of Al's fishless cycling idea

[joanr]

Does that mean the NB could survive in the sponge for all these years? Anyhow, they came out of my pristine Discus tanks, no pathogens, parasites or other nastiness.

[Disgirl]

I have no idea how long the bacteria could survive. But I still wouldn't take a chance. Since the MG seems to do the job all by itself you won't need old sponges. If you do use them I sure would get them wet and microwave the heck out of them before putting them in the tank. These days with all this"discus plague" or whatever it is I want to be extra careful with my fish.
Barb

[joanr]

I have no idea how long the bacteria could survive. But I still wouldn't take a chance. Since the MG seems to do the job all by itself you won't need old sponges. If you do use them I sure would get them wet and microwave the heck out of them before putting them in the tank. These days with all this"discus plague" or whatever it is I want to be extra careful with my fish.
Barb

OK Barb, nix the ancient sponge filters, no need for any extra concerns. I have one more question for you. Since you are still feeding the tank while the Angels are in QT are you going to do yet another huge W/C before you put them in? I'm not sure everything they add in the MG would be good for the fish, and with the pure ammonia method you are only introducing the ammonia, not any other compounds/trace minerals etc.

[Disgirl]

Yes I sure will. Probably at least 75% the day before the fish go in and a good dose of Prime since our water has chlorine.
Barb

[joanr]

Ok, I'm at day three. The ammonia is off the charts, probably at ~8ppm. No nitrites and NO3 is barely 1ppm if that. So, I think you got a jump with the fact that you had some plants in the tank when you started. I don't remember such an ammonia jump with using just the pure ammonia, it started at 4-5ppm. I'll let it brew a few more days and report back. If the NH3/4 is still that high with no other readings, what should I do? A small w/c to get it back down to 4-5ppm?

[Disgirl]

Joan, what is the NPK of the fert you used? MG makes several types. Mine is the 15-30-15 (approx) kind. That could be the difference. The plants I put in were not much and they all turned to mush after a week and I took the stuff out. I think you shouldn't do any wc's until you have much higher Nitrate. When mine got to 160 I changed 90% water and the Nitrate stayed at 30 or less before going all the way down to 5 or so within the next week. All my numbers are great now and I add a bit of fert. every few days. Fish go in in about 2 more weeks, 10 young angels. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
Barb

[Scribbles]

Wonderful experiment Barb. Very interesting read. Thanks for sharing.

Chris

[joanr]

Barb, looking at the box it's 24-8-16. My smaller box that's been in the cabinet for years now say's 15-30-15. I had no idea they had different blends of the blue crystals, what do the numbers mean? I hope this won't delay things.

[Disgirl]

Well Joan, there is the answer to your initial high ammonia readings. With fertilizer, the N is total nitrogen (ammoniacal nitrogen and urea nitrogen), your ammonia readings. The P is Phosphate and the K is Potash. You added much more nitrogen than I did with my 15-30-15. But don't worry, it should be fine. It will just take longer for your nitrites and nitrates to go up then down. You are experimenting here too . And thanks Chris, for being interested!
Barb

[joanr]

Thanks Barb, I'm just hoping that much "N" isn't overkill, making it impossible for the cycle to start. I'll wait and see, if worse comes to worse I can do a small w/c to get the ammonia back down to 3-4 or thereabouts. This is a great learning experience for my daughter, she's taking an oceanography class this year and although exposed to my discus days, she was too young to appreciate the processes, now she has a tank of her own and she loves doing the water testing.

[joanr]

This is what I think happened since it's been almost a week with nothing happening except for sky high ammonia levels. I found out that too much will inhibit the process as stated below, except I haven't seen any nitrite readings yet.

Too Much Ammonia?

It IS possible to add too much ammonia to the tank (generally several times the amounts suggested in either recipe), as some individuals discovered by mistake (thanks Boozap). What happens in this case is that the ammonia will spike very far off the chart, then the nitrite will spike as well (also way off the chart), and it will continue to spike for a very long time. Why? There are a couple of possibilities. The first is that the filter media and surfaces in the tank or oxygen levels are simply insufficient to grow and maintain a bacterial colony massive enough to convert all of the ammonia and all of the nitrite to nitrates. Another likely possibility is that the ammonia levels are high enough to inhibit growth (through a biofeedback mechanism) of the bacteria rather than promoting it. The solution is quite simple, however. If you realize that you've added way too much ammonia, simply do a water change, or if necessary a series of water changes, to bring the ammonia and/or nitrite levels back into the readable range on your test kit.

So I brought the nh3 back down to about 4-5ppm with 40% w/c, now it's just wait and see.

[rickztahone]

This is what I think happened since it's been almost a week with nothing happening except for sky high ammonia levels. I found out that too much will inhibit the process as stated below, except I haven't seen any nitrite readings yet.

Too Much Ammonia?

It IS possible to add too much ammonia to the tank (generally several times the amounts suggested in either recipe), as some individuals discovered by mistake (thanks Boozap). What happens in this case is that the ammonia will spike very far off the chart, then the nitrite will spike as well (also way off the chart), and it will continue to spike for a very long time. Why? There are a couple of possibilities. The first is that the filter media and surfaces in the tank or oxygen levels are simply insufficient to grow and maintain a bacterial colony massive enough to convert all of the ammonia and all of the nitrite to nitrates. Another likely possibility is that the ammonia levels are high enough to inhibit growth (through a biofeedback mechanism) of the bacteria rather than promoting it. The solution is quite simple, however. If you realize that you've added way too much ammonia, simply do a water change, or if necessary a series of water changes, to bring the ammonia and/or nitrite levels back into the readable range on your test kit.

So I brought the nh3 back down to about 4-5ppm with 40% w/c, now it's just wait and see.

Joan, i'm sorry i hadn't seen your try at the experiment or i would have suggested the small WC to bring your ammonia down to 4-5ppm. please keep us updated and tell us how it goes

[joanr]

My problem was I bought the wrong MG, mine was 24-8-16, instead of the 15-30-15. In some ways the lower concentration of P (phosphates) may be a good deal, but the 24 of N overloaded the tank. Simple fix, just reduce the initial amount by almost half. I'll get back in a few days with some readings after the w/c fix I did last night.

[KJoFan]

Ok I just want to quickly share my experience with the Miracle Gro cycling plan:

7-25: Added 1/2 tsp Miracle Gro to 40g tank

7-27:

Ammonia: .5
Nitrite: 2
Nitrate: 5

7-28:

Ammonia: .25-.5
Nitrite: 1-2
Nitrate: 5+

7-29:

Ammonia: 0-.25
Nitrite: 1-2
Nitrate: 10

7-30:

Ammonia: .25
Nitrite: 2
Nitrate: 10

8-1: Added 1/2 tsp of Miracle Gro after test results on this date

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: .25
Nitrate: 40

Performed 50% W/C


8-2:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: .25-.5
Nitrate: 20

8-3: Added 1 tsp of Miracle Gro after test results on this date

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40

8-5:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40+

Performed 90% W/C

8-6:

Added 5 4" Discus
Added salt

8-7:

2-3 feedings of a cube or two of FBW
no water change

8-8:

2 feedings of two cubes of FBW
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 20

75% W/C

And all is well.

So all in all it took 11-12 days to completely cycle the tank. I only ever got my ammonia levels up to .5 that I noticed, although I didn't test the first couple days after originally adding the Miracle Gro. But, even with not waterchanging after their first full day in the tank, the levels were within reason. I'd call it a success and will definitely use this method again if I need get another tank up.

[Eddie]

Ok I just want to quickly share my experience with the Miracle Gro cycling plan:

7-25: Added 1/2 tsp Miracle Gro to 40g tank

7-27:

Ammonia: .5
Nitrite: 2
Nitrate: 5

7-28:

Ammonia: .25-.5
Nitrite: 1-2
Nitrate: 5+

7-29:

Ammonia: 0-.25
Nitrite: 1-2
Nitrate: 10

7-30:

Ammonia: .25
Nitrite: 2
Nitrate: 10

8-1: Added 1/2 tsp of Miracle Gro after test results on this date

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: .25
Nitrate: 40

Performed 50% W/C


8-2:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: .25-.5
Nitrate: 20

8-3: Added 1 tsp of Miracle Gro after test results on this date

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40

8-5:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40+

Performed 90% W/C

8-6:

Added 5 4" Discus
Added salt

8-7:

2-3 feedings of a cube or two of FBW
no water change

8-8:

2 feedings of two cubes of FBW
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 20

75% W/C

And all is well.

So all in all it took 11-12 days to completely cycle the tank. I only ever got my ammonia levels up to .5 that I noticed, although I didn't test the first couple days after originally adding the Miracle Gro. But, even with not waterchanging after their first full day in the tank, the levels were within reason. I'd call it a success and will definitely use this method again if I need get another tank up.

Wow! That is fast fast! Great info! Thanks

Eddie