"Beefheart"--under the microscope

[William Palumbo]

Who, or what, study says that BH kills them or shortens their life. Let's be honest people, Discus can live for a long time. I have had Discus fed EXCLUSIVELY with BH that lived over 8 years. If you ever saw a Discus over 8 years old, it's not a pretty sight. And now adays, I doubt anyone here will keep any of their Discus to old age. There are too many different colors and strains out there, and everyone wants them. People are always selling off, or trading on here, their Discus, to get new ones. New strains. New colors. I doubt any will die of old age...neglect? yes. BH works. They grow out big fish, into productive breeders. Hard to argue with that. Part of their natural diet or not...Bill

[RD.]

Speaking of Jack Wattley ......

In the Dec 2006 edition of TFH, Jack stated:

"I've moved in a new direction regarding the feeding of discus, and after many tests feel that a top quality flake or pellet food formulated especially for discus is perhaps the best direction to take. "

[kaceyo]

In the last 15 min I was able to find 3 studies indicating that beefheart was lacking in several areas when compaired to fish meal for raising fry of various food fishes. There have been many studies sited here with the same conclusions.
The info is easily available if you want to look it up. I did a search on "beefheart in aquaculture" to find the info.

Kacey

[philip69285]

I use beefheart here and there in my feedings... not all the time but sometimes. The fish love it and thats all that matters. They love everything I give them but thats not the point. I haven't seen one of my discus get sick or show any problems from eating beefheart or any of my other MANY MANY fish I have. I don't really use frozen foods anymore... very rarely here and there as I love the freeze dried foods more (Mal's black worms). Do whatever works for you I always say... if theres proof out there I would love to see it. Would I stop feeding how I feed no. If my discus are happy, I am happy. But again 95% of my discus's diet is flake, pellets, and freeze dried foods of all different kinds.

That is my feeding regime and everyone else has their own. I dont tell them their wrong because they feed certain foods and I don't. If they are solely feeding one food (like these ppl and their oscars) that I deal with on a daily basis and have got many to start feedings a more varied diet and they have seen the results from it. But if they don't want to that is their choice and they do as they wish. You can't change anyones mind on what works best for them with any amount of scientific proof. Atleast thats my view on it . It will take a lot more then one person to change anyones views.

I just say lets grow out some nice healthy, beautiful, and round discus ppl .

[wgtaylor]

I'm right there with you guys, I would rather feed my discus what's best. That's why I was wondering why beef heart has been so successful for so long.
I could leave it out of their diet and I'm sure they would be fine.
I'm not defending beef heart and have looked for a good substitute. I was surprised to find there are over 1,300 species of cichlids, some are
herbivore, some omnivore and some carnivore and each have their own dietary needs.
I've always heard discus were omnivore but studies have proven that discus dietary requirements are those of a carnivore and discus have been
classified carnivore. I'm sure that is not going to make a lot of people happy. I like to think of my discus as a peaceful plant eating occasional worm
gobblers but guess that's not true.
Here is a good article here on tropical fish dietary needs, note the first paragraph, protein requirements of 50% for the carnivorous discus (Symphysodon aequifasciata).
Also something I thought useful, in the section under Minerals, Of all the minerals required by fish, phosphorus is one of the most important because it is essential in growth, bone
mineralization and lipid and carbohydrate metabolism, and is needed in the diet due to low content in natural water.
And then in Conclusions and Recommendations, Feeding of ornamental fish is based on extrapolations of nutrient requirements and practices derived from food fish
under intensive cultured conditions aimed at maximum growth in a short time period.
Most food studies done on fish monitor growth and weight gain, the fastest assumed being the best. Anyway, here is that article,
http://www.alr-journal.org/index.php...06/alr3006.pdf

Other studies have proven discus have a high digestibility of mammalian meat and low digestibility of plant material, actually some plant material in the diet can be detrimental.
This isn't the whole paper but the Abstract gives a decent summery of the findings.
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00003/art00007

Another study I found really interesting was at what age discus were able to digest different foods. No artemia before 3 days and no high protein foods before 25 days.
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/search...ize=20&index=3

These other studies done on discus just show protein levels of 50% giving best growth and weight gain, other studies indicating poor growth by adding plant material in the diet.
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/search...ize=20&index=1
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/search...ize=20&index=6
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/search...ize=20&index=4

Fred Goodall from Discus Page Holland wrote a good article (which I won't link here) summarizing some of these studies.
He indicated these studies with their graphs and charts have not found their way into the latest discus books because the copyrights belong to the magazines that published
the submitted works and the authors have no Rights to their own studies for publication. However if you search long enough on the internet you can find full text versions of these studies and more.

I've been feeding discus for a long time and always looking for a better diet. It's been said before, a varied diet is probably the best to insure they get all the nutrition they need.
We can leave the beef heart out of their diet and fish may be healthier. I would just hate to have someone new to discus write-off beef heart completely without also looking at
it's benefits.
This is some information I have found, not my opinions, I'm open to finding the best diet also. I hope I never stop learning about discus.
Peace you guys,
Bill

[RD.]

I've always heard discus were omnivore but studies have proven that discus dietary requirements are those of a carnivore and discus have been
classified carnivore.

Not exactly .......

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?scri...52008000400008

"This species feeds predominantly on algal periphyton, fine organic detritus, plant matter, and small aquatic invertebrates."

"The alimentary canal of Symphysodon is characterized by a poorly defined stomach and an elongate intestine, some 300 mm long and 3 mm wide (in a 180 mm SL specimen). This intestinal morphology is typical of a cichlid with a dominantly vegetarian, detritivorous, or omnivorous diet."

The scientific journal linked to above pretty much clears up the myth that discus are a highly carnivorous species that require massive amounts of protein for proper growth.

Chong et al ran a 3 month feed trial on juvenile discus (fish approx. 4.5grams in weight) and concluded that a diet consisting of 45-50% protein, and 8% fat was ideal for optimum growth for juveniles of this species.

I have no argument with those stats, and the same could be said for hundreds/thousands of ornamental species, but somehow this data has been used by certain segments of the discus world to support their use of a high protein diet (such as beefheart) throughout the various life stages of the fish.

Chong et al used fish meal as the source of protein (along with casein & gelatine as binding agents) in their study, not beefheart, and those levels of protein/fat were for juvenile discus, not adults, or even semi adults.


In Heiko Bleher's Discus book vol 1. it also gives a full description of wild Discus nutrition and states that the 5 most common items eaten by discus in the wild are; detritus, vegetable matter, algae & micro algae, aquatic invertebrates, terrestrial & arboreal arthropods.

If one feels the need to supplement their fishes diet, I would think that insects such as ants, spiders, cricket parts, mealworms, etc would be far better suited to their digestive system, than foods such as beefheart.

While a high protein, high fat (or incorrect type of fat) diet may indeed bring on swift growth, over the long haul it can also eventually result in excess lipid deposition and necrosis of the liver, ultimately leading to premature death. In essence a discus that is fed a less than ideal diet and that dies at the ripe old age of 5-10 yrs, may have possibly reached 15-20 yrs (or longer) with a more properly balanced diet. Perhaps to some people this isn't important?

Also if too much excess protein is supplied in a fishes diet, due to the energy required to deaminate & excrete those excess amino acids, one can actually experience a decrease in the growth of the fish. So not only can crude protein in excess of the fishes requirement lead to excess excretion of ammonia via the gills and excess nitrogen from the feces (as in excess pollution to your tank), it can also be counter productive to the growth of the fish.


HTH

[brewmaster15]

Hmmm,

I think you all need to consider what your goals are...A hobbyist goals may or may not be the same as a hatchery breeders goals. A food that meets your goals is a good food....a food that does not meet your goals obviously is not.

But ,Okay I'll play devils advocate here.. Despite almost every major hatchery out there using heartmeat based mixes to feed raise their Discus and breeder Discus, as well as countless domestic Discus that win at national shows being raised on the stuff to such huge sizes... I'll agree that the BH is not an ideal food by itself...though I think since its used by most hobbyists as part of a mixed diet the point is not as critical as others may feel it is....we'll just have to agree to disagree there.

Still for arguments sake...Lets ignore what has historically been shown to be a useful food to raise large discus to at least breeder age and breed them...and raise large show grade fish... But we'll say here its not a good a food as it "may" take some " hypothetical years" off their "hypothetical life span"... even though we have not seen a single study that what is spoken of as a possibility here actually occurs under real tank conditions provided every other aspect of the husbandry is optimum and verses other diets.

Even if feeding it were to cause fat deposits inside the fish...That does not mean that it translate to any real and quantifiable effects on the fishes health and longevity all things considered...It may...but that doesn't mean it definetly will...People can hypothesis all they want...but there really isn't anything that definetly shows that BH WILL have a negative affect on longevity in any appreciable terms ..I think there are many more factors and variables that come into play in an aquarium fish Longevity and will make this very difficult to prove... and that make the issue largely a non-issue for me personally.

Now back to my Devils advocate position.

Since we have now established witha an arbitrary level of "certainty" that BH is bad for the discus health and longevity. Please share with everyone the specific food that is better than BH...and provide some scientific research comparing that food to other foods or better yet to BH that shows its better for the longevity and health of Discus in practical quantifiable and definable terms. I'd also really like to see what they used a control to make these comparisons and conclusions.

Good luck doing that...My point in this post isn't to be a negative here in this....My point is its one thing to feel something is intuitively better or worse than something else...but its another to prove it scientifically and definitively show it. You know what they say about assumptions?

My position on this has been stated before..I don't see feeding BH as part of a mixed diet as a problem....I don't feel its necessary either and I will stay open minded as to the negatives provided someone shows me hard science ....but I recognize its usefulness to meet my goals. I'm a hobby breeder..I need my fish to grow reasonably fast, shapely, and be fertile to breed the next generations... thats my goal and I have found BH as part of the diet to be useful to meet that goal.

BH may very well turn out to not be a great food for some goals...but truthfully.. I think the same is true for all the other foods we feed and people hype...but thats just my opinion and intuitive take on it.....not a scientific fact.

hth,
-al

[RD.]

Even if feeding it were to cause fat deposits inside the fish...That does not mean that it translate to any* real* and *quantifiable effects* on the fishes health and longevity all things considered...It may...but that doesn't mean it definetly will...People can hypothesis all they want...but there really isn't anything that definetly shows that BH *WILL *have a negative affect on longevity in *any appreciable terms* ..I think there are many more factors and variables that come into play in an aquarium fish Longevity and will make this very difficult to prove... and that make the issue largely a non-issue for me personally.

I dunno Al, but personally I think you'd have a much more difficult time proving that necrosis of hepatocytes, and/or atrophy of the pancreas does not affect the longevity of a fish, vs. it does affect the longevity of a fish. (any species) Plenty of science & hard data out there to support the latter, with numerous fresh water & marine species of fish.

Previously in this discussion you stated:

Is it fair to say that excessive BH can cause fat deposit? I think so... but Its also far to say that any fat source will do the same.

I would agree with that, which is something that I have been stating for many many years.

While I would personally never feed BH to any fish that I own, I also don't believe that feeding *some* BH as part of a varied diet is going to cause any major health issues in anyone's fish. I would also be willing to bet that most domestic strains of discus have approx. half the intestinal gut length as their wild counterparts.

But at the end of the day none of this probably matters according to most peoples goals, and I think that Bill said it best.

And now adays, I doubt anyone here will keep any of their Discus to old age. There are too many different colors and strains out there, and everyone wants them. People are always selling off, or trading on here, their Discus, to get new ones. New strains. New colors. I doubt any will die of old age...neglect? yes.

With that in mind I doubt that you'll be seeing any scientific studies regarding the use of BH in the near future, obviously there doesn't appear to be enough interest for anyone to support such a study.

Neil

[Fern]

I think this is a perfect opportunity to test the effects of BH, the ideal feeding that is good versus excessive feeding that is bad. We could definately benefit and maybe put to rest some misinformation.

[ShinShin]

William,

I had a male MR for a little over 9 years and was still breeding when I traded it although only about 25% of the eggs were fertile. He wasn't as fine as when he was 18 months, but was nicer than some posted here for scoring.

Mat

[William Palumbo]

Hi Mat...I could see where PB based fish would not look as bad as the other non-PB based fish. The ones I had were Powder Blues and a tank of Royal Blue cross...and although most retained great shape and finnage, they were just very dark, almost black, if not black at times. Since PB based fish don't usually darken, I can see what you mean. I should have been more clear...Bill