"Beefheart"--under the microscope

[rickztahone]

this thread was started for the sole purpose of discussing beefheart in our discus hobby. Vitz, please keep explaining whey beefheart is not a suitable food source for our discus. this thread is meant to be an open-debate type thread but is to be kept factual as well. this is for the betterment and further knowledge of our fish. take it away Vitz or anyone else who might have a counter argument.

reference: this is where the topic originated (some good facts)
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...t=72988&page=2

[Chad Hughes]

Vitz....... paging vitz........ were waiting to hear how beefheart kills discus......

Vitz?

[Eddie]

Vitz....... paging vitz........ were waiting to hear how beefheart kills discus......

Vitz?

LMAO

[vitz]

Vitz....... paging vitz........ were waiting to hear how beefheart kills discus......

Vitz?

if you want to discuss this this intelligently-fine

if you want to drop to the level of childish sarcasm, while putting words in my mouth, i'll stop now

i have posted a research reference, w/a few citations-as to the established fact that animal lipids are an issue for fish to metabolize properly

it's simply a fact of physical science that mammalian lipids congeal at tropical fish temps

it's a fact that fish metabolism, and many of their protien/enzyme sets, are different from mammals' (also referenced in the jpeg i posted)

it's also a fact that there are foods that are superior to beefheart, that are just as palatable, and less (potentially) dangerous to ALL fish - including manufactured ones

[William Palumbo]

I have used BH since I bought my first Discus back in the early '80's...and still do. In fact I will be using it more in my feeding program. I want to phase out the FBW's as I am highly allergic to them, and the price is getting out of hand, as I go thru too much of it. I have noticed using a good BH blend, fed often, my Discus seemed to grow faster and bigger. I kind of backed off the amount of feedings as of late because the way BH can foul the water. I substituted with FBW to compensate, because it's a cleaner source of food, as the Discus eat it ALL. Nothing left in the tank un-eaten. In conclusion of MY Discus and hatchery, I see where the FBW is not as nutritional as a good BH mix. Can't compare to it. Which is why I will be going back to a 90% BH diet, supplemented with flakes and pellets. I never tried the seafood mix. Probally never will. Only because for me the BH works, and works well. For decades BH grew out BIG Discus...healthy BREEDING Discus, here and overseas. That has to speak for itself...Bill

[Disgirl]

I have always understood over the years that beefheart is great. 20 yrs. ago when I got my first discus, Wattley turqs, it was the recommended food to feed. I bought a beef heart, froze pieces of it and then grated it up to feed. But now I wonder, do the new findings show that it can shorten a discus' life? Fast, beautiful and huge growth is great. But I want my discus to live a long time even if they are not 6" plus in size.
Barb

[Eddie]

I have always understood over the years that beefheart is great. 20 yrs. ago when I got my first discus, Wattley turqs, it was the recommended food to feed. I bought a beef heart, froze pieces of it and then grated it up to feed. But now I wonder, do the new findings show that it can shorten a discus' life? Fast, beautiful and huge growth is great. But I want my discus to live a long time even if they are not 6" plus in size.
Barb

Hey there Barb, I am totally unaware of it causing premature death. No worries, don't be afraid of it.


Eddie

[bs6749]

i have posted a research reference, w/a few citations-as to the established fact that animal lipids are an issue for fish to metabolize properly

That may be so, but beefheart is extremely lean containing approximately 4% lipids by weight and excess fat is trimmed while prepping it. Hans, the U.S. importer of Stendker discus, uses a sirloin mix with a 90/10 rating (10% fat content) and he has had no issues to date. He feeds this mix to his discus and BN plecos among other fish and they are all healthy and strong. Moderation is key and a 4% fat content of beefheart is not going to harm any fish. If if was deadly to fish, why would so many breeders use it as a food? If it is going to harm something that they make money off of what would the purpose of using it as a food be?

it's also a fact that there are foods that are superior to beefheart, that are just as palatable, and less (potentially) dangerous to ALL fish - including manufactured ones

I believe that's actually an opinion. Though I agree that there are more balanced foods out there than just beefheart alone, there are beefheart mixes that would kick the pants off of most dry foods available. These mixes contain wild caught fish, shrimp/prawns, vegetable matter, vitamins, things to make the discus color up nicely, beefheart, and garlic to entice discus to eat the mix. Having a mix like that is hard to beat. The results speak for themselves.

[bs6749]

I have used BH since I bought my first Discus back in the early '80's...and still do. In fact I will be using it more in my feeding program. I want to phase out the FBW's as I am highly allergic to them, and the price is getting out of hand, as I go thru too much of it. I have noticed using a good BH blend, fed often, my Discus seemed to grow faster and bigger. I kind of backed off the amount of feedings as of late because the way BH can foul the water. I substituted with FBW to compensate, because it's a cleaner source of food, as the Discus eat it ALL. Nothing left in the tank un-eaten. In conclusion of MY Discus and hatchery, I see where the FBW is not as nutritional as a good BH mix. Can't compare to it. Which is why I will be going back to a 90% BH diet, supplemented with flakes and pellets. I never tried the seafood mix. Probally never will. Only because for me the BH works, and works well. For decades BH grew out BIG Discus...healthy BREEDING Discus, here and overseas. That has to speak for itself...Bill

Bill, not to be a smartass, but you should give latex gloves a try or find some other way to keep feeding frozen bloodworms.

I know you can get a 56 lb case of frozen bloodworms from Oregon Desert for less than $4.75 per lb flat (including shipping). If you are interested, just contact them about an order and they will give you a price quote for a case. Shipping would be to your nearest airport. I am thinking about doing this for myself, but 56 lbs is a lot of bloodworms LOL. I'm not sure if this is still too expensive for you but it's the best deal I've found on bloodworms so far.

[rickztahone]

if you want to discuss this this intelligently-fine

if you want to drop to the level of childish sarcasm, while putting words in my mouth, i'll stop now

i have posted a research reference, w/a few citations-as to the established fact that animal lipids are an issue for fish to metabolize properly

it's simply a fact of physical science that mammalian lipids congeal at tropical fish temps

it's a fact that fish metabolism, and many of their protien/enzyme sets, are different from mammals' (also referenced in the jpeg i posted)

it's also a fact that there are foods that are superior to beefheart, that are just as palatable, and less (potentially) dangerous to ALL fish - including manufactured ones

interesting points

I have used BH since I bought my first Discus back in the early '80's...and still do. In fact I will be using it more in my feeding program. I want to phase out the FBW's as I am highly allergic to them, and the price is getting out of hand, as I go thru too much of it. I have noticed using a good BH blend, fed often, my Discus seemed to grow faster and bigger. I kind of backed off the amount of feedings as of late because the way BH can foul the water. I substituted with FBW to compensate, because it's a cleaner source of food, as the Discus eat it ALL. Nothing left in the tank un-eaten. In conclusion of MY Discus and hatchery, I see where the FBW is not as nutritional as a good BH mix. Can't compare to it. Which is why I will be going back to a 90% BH diet, supplemented with flakes and pellets. I never tried the seafood mix. Probally never will. Only because for me the BH works, and works well. For decades BH grew out BIG Discus...healthy BREEDING Discus, here and overseas. That has to speak for itself...Bill

while i do not want to against or for anyone on this discussion i want to point something out that Vitz previously said on the other thread that you might have missed Bill. it had to do with discus that have been eating beefheart and readily accept it. i think Vitz has a valid argument when he stated that even though they do readily take beefheart it doesn't mean that it is good for them. i understand that you have been feeding it for quite a while with no outward physical problems but if his statement is valid/fact then it would mean that even if they do eat it voraciously and it helps put on size it doesn't necessarily mean it's good for them. again, i'm not trying to go against anyone but it seems he has the fish best interest at heart here with wanting to provide the best food to expand their life span, i can't go against that standpoint because ultimately that is what we all want. for example, if you have a pet dog and they told you that beefheart will make him humongous, would you keep feeding him that just to bulk him/her up when there are so many healthy dry foods out there that would not be as detrimental to it's health? i know i'm semi-taking a side hear (devils advocate) but i wouldn't feed my dog something that might be bad for him/her in the long run even if having a larger dog is what i'm aiming for. at the end of the day our fish are our pets and their well being, just as dogs (for the sake of this argument) are the utmost priority.

[Eddie]

interesting points



while i do not want to against or for anyone on this discussion i want to point something out that Vitz previously said on the other thread that you might have missed Bill. it had to do with discus that have been eating beefheart and readily accept it. i think Vitz has a valid argument when he stated that even though they do readily take beefheart it doesn't mean that it is good for them. i understand that you have been feeding it for quite a while with no outward physical problems but if his statement is valid/fact then it would mean that even if they do eat it voraciously and it helps put on size it doesn't necessarily mean it's good for them. again, i'm not trying to go against anyone but it seems he has the fish best interest at heart here with wanting to provide the best food to expand their life span, i can't go against that standpoint because ultimately that is what we all want. for example, if you have a pet dog and they told you that beefheart will make him humongous, would you keep feeding him that just to bulk him/her up when there are so many healthy dry foods out there that would not be as detrimental to it's health? i know i'm semi-taking a side hear (devils advocate) but i wouldn't feed my dog something that might be bad for him/her in the long run even if having a larger dog is what i'm aiming for. at the end of the day our fish are our pets and their well being, just as dogs (for the sake of this argument) are the utmost priority.

Studies on life span and the consumption of beefheart would have to be accomplished. Where is the data that states beefhreat....strictly beefheart will shorten the life of the fish? I think if there was some concrete data, there would alot less talk about it from the worlds greatest discus pioneers. I don't use it as stated many times but I would without a second thought. Is the fish gonna live a shorter life....nobody can prove that, nobody.

Eddie

[bs6749]

I believe that high protein diets, such as one that includes just beefheart (no mixes...just the beefheart) are bad for discus. I do believe that high protein diets such as these can shorten the life span of the fish and can lead to kidney disease and failure just like high protein diets can cause in mammals. I don't use beefheart myself, though I do use higher protien content flake (Ocean Nutrition Prime Reef) along with NLS cihclid formula, frozen bloodworms, frozen brine shrimp, and occasionally live blackworms. I try to give them a variety, which I believe is best.

[Eddie]

I believe that high protein diets, such as one that includes just beefheart (no mixes...just the beefheart) are bad for discus. I do believe that high protein diets such as these can shorten the life span of the fish and can lead to kidney disease and failure just like high protein diets can cause in mammals. I don't use beefheart myself, though I do use higher protien content flake (Ocean Nutrition Prime Reef) along with NLS cihclid formula, frozen bloodworms, frozen brine shrimp, and occasionally live blackworms. I try to give them a variety, which I believe is best.

Where is your data? A belief is a far cry from fact.

Eddie

[rickztahone]

Studies on life span and the consumption of beefheart would have to be accomplished. Where is the data that states beefhreat....strictly beefheart will shorten the life of the fish? I think if there was some concrete data, there would alot less talk about it from the worlds greatest discus pioneers. I don't use it as stated many times but I would without a second thought. Is the fish gonna live a shorter life....nobody can prove that, nobody.

Eddie

actually someone can, they just haven't done it. i'd be hard-pressed to think that with today's advancement in the technological field we wouldn't be able to actually verify that the use of beefheart alone can be detrimental to a fish life. again, no one has taken on the task

[Eddie]

actually someone can, they just haven't done it. i'd be hard-pressed to think that with today's advancement in the technological field we wouldn't be able to actually verify that the use of beefheart alone can be detrimental to a fish life. again, no one has taken on the task

Exactly and why is that? The fish will live 5 years and not 6. Most people don't even care about that year. They'll get a new fish or breed them and have babies to replace it. They come and go, as in all living things. If everybody wants to compare diets of what we eat and what we are not supposed to be eating. I'd say well over 80% of the crap we put down is not what we should be digesting probably closer to over 90%.

Eddie