"Beefheart"--under the microscope

[Darrell Ward]

Beef heart is probably no worse, and likely more nutritious than some of the things wild discus eat. I've seen pictures of wild discus that were huge, much larger than average domestics. I saw this study once, where researchers examined the stomach contents of hundreds of wild caught discus over a period of time, and found fruit, seeds, bugs, algae, all kinds of stuff.

[Chad Hughes]

if you want to discuss this this intelligently-fine

if you want to drop to the level of childish sarcasm, while putting words in my mouth, i'll stop now

i have posted a research reference, w/a few citations-as to the established fact that animal lipids are an issue for fish to metabolize properly

it's simply a fact of physical science that mammalian lipids congeal at tropical fish temps

it's a fact that fish metabolism, and many of their protien/enzyme sets, are different from mammals' (also referenced in the jpeg i posted)

it's also a fact that there are foods that are superior to beefheart, that are just as palatable, and less (potentially) dangerous to ALL fish - including manufactured ones

Vitz,

I didn't mean to offend you. Just a little weekend humor. I'm certain that your theory backed by that (very tiny) document that you posted has merit. Fact is, discus folk have been using beefheart for a very long time and it works without any notable faults. That being said, we have a cheap food source that delivers results. It's hard to back down from that.

Anyway, no hard feelings?

Best wishes!

[bs6749]

Where is your data? A belief is a far cry from fact.

Eddie

You don't need numbers to know the effects of something. I'm not interested in how much the life is shortened.

If I take metal shavings (protein) and put them into an oil pan in your car is the engine (fish) going to run longer or will it's life be shortened? You can say that the oil filter (kidneys) will remove the shavings, but it won't remove all of them. The finest of shavings can still get through and damage the engine. If I put so many shavings into the filter then the filter can stop functioning alltogether leading to engine failure.

Notice that I said YOUR car and not MINE. I know what would happen in the above scenario in a car. If you dont believe me then feel free to try it in YOUR car.

[Eddie]

You don't need numbers to know the effects of something.

If I take metal shavings (protein) and put them into an oil pan in your car is the engine (fish) going to run longer or will it's life be shortened? You can say that the oil filter (kidneys) will remove the shavings, but it won't remove all of them. The finest of shavings can still get through and damage the engine. If I put so many shavings into the filter then the filter can stop functioning alltogether leading to engine failure.

Notice that I said YOUR car and not MINE. I know what would happen in the above scenario in a car. If you dont believe me then feel free to try it in YOUR car.

Well when you show me the effects of beefheart on discus then come back, otherwise join a car forum.

Eddie

[bs6749]

Well when you show me the effects of beefheart on discus then come back, otherwise join a car forum.

Eddie

I never said that beefheart was bad. I merely implied that feeding ONLY BEEFHEART is bad. Variety is key, I don't think many could successfully argue that point.

[Eddie]

I never said that beefheart was bad. I merely implied that feeding ONLY BEEFHEART is bad. Variety is key, I don't think many could successfully argue that point.

Could be bad, but a well rounded mix could also not be bad if fed exclusively.

Eddie

[rickztahone]

Exactly and why is that? The fish will live 5 years and not 6. Most people don't even care about that year. They'll get a new fish or breed them and have babies to replace it. They come and go, as in all living things. If everybody wants to compare diets of what we eat and what we are not supposed to be eating. I'd say well over 80% of the crap we put down is not what we should be digesting probably closer to over 90%.

Eddie

you are talking more about mass-scale reproduction companies that use them for market while we do buy them for being our pets alone. if there was someone here on SD that had the knowledge or the equipment to be able to carry out said experiment then i would say that "most people" would care for that extra year of life, at least i would.

[William Palumbo]

My first Discus ate BH, and ONLY BH. For 8+ years before I gave them to a close friend. They never saw a flake, pellet or any type of worm. I understand that theoreticly beef would not be a suitable food for Discus. Discus do not have teeth. Most type of meat eaters have teeth for obvious reasons. Humans eating beef or any type of red meat for every meal, everyday, has been proven to not be healthy. I feel Discus would have the diet equivalent to a Bluegill. They both have small mouths, which is perfect for eating insects and nymphal larvae, seeds, detritus, algae, ect. They can and will eat small fish when given the chance, but Discus in general are not stealthy or aggressive hunters. If it swims by and they can grab it...they will. I feel ANY type of meat, other than fish, is not suitable for Discus "theoreticly"...but the BH works. Whatever the reason... it works. The Discus are obviously able to utilize it for growth and development. I see no direct link to early deaths. Not in my fish. Is it a natural diet?...Far from it...Does it work?...YES...Bill

[Darrell Ward]

My first Discus ate BH, and ONLY BH. For 8+ years before I gave them to a close friend. They never saw a flake, pellet or any type of worm. I understand that theoreticly beef would not be a suitable food for Discus. Discus do not have teeth. Most type of meat eaters have teeth for obvious reasons. Humans eating beef or any type of red meat for every meal, everyday, has been proven to not be healthy. I feel Discus would have the diet equivalent to a Bluegill. They both have small mouths, which is perfect for eating insects and nymphal larvae, seeds, detritus, algae, ect. They can and will eat small fish when given the chance, but Discus in general are not stealthy or aggressive hunters. If it swims by and they can grab it...they will. I feel ANY type of meat, other than fish, is not suitable for Discus "theoreticly"...but the BH works. Whatever the reason... it works. The Discus are obviously able to utilize it for growth and development. I see no direct link to early deaths. Not in my fish. Is it a natural diet?...Far from it...Does it work?...YES...Bill

...and in the end, that's all that freaking matters.

[roclement]

Once in my life i went to the discus farm of Peter Thode in maryland (http://www.discushatchery.com/food.html) this family has been breeding dicus and many other fish for generations, just like Stendker family has...I even believe that Peter is friends with them (Hans please imput here). Take a look at his food mix, what's in it, and the results and longevity of his business...to me that is waht matters!

Now...I am not defending beefheart as a sole source of meals for fish, but just beacuse fish don't eat it in the wild, it does not mean that it is not a good source of nutrition for them in a domesticated environment. Discus also don;t live in glass cgaes in the wild with the best clean water and stable temperatures...should we change that as well!?

Discus are oportunistic feeder, like most wild animals, they will eat what they can find and fit in their mouth. If they grow well and breed with beefheart mixes, why not use it? I eat McDonald's, I eat processed foods...who cares!? The life expectancy of human beigns has only expanded...every thing that we put in our bodies that is "bad" for us, seems to be offset by some other improvement that makes life better...don't believe me? What do you think is worst...eating at McD's or scavenging for food in a forrest...what will kill you faster?

Same applies to domesticated animals...we shove food down their throats and expected them to grow quickly and reproduce true...what we don't like, we cull. we cross breed in order to get colors that are pleasing to us, or to get shapes that we think are cool! With all of that going on someone is gonna tell me that "beefheart" is bad for my fish!!!?

Come on already...what is best for our fish is for us to leave them be in a river somewhere...what is best for us is to keep our fish in a way that makes us happy! i want mine to grow quickly and as large as possible, as stated before, i most likely won't have the same fish for 8 years, most keepers will kill their fish much before that, not because of food, but to poor water conditions, accidents, temperature swings, or disease from poor quarentine routines...

Feed your Discus (or yourselves for that matter) what makes you happy, the results have to work for YOU.

Where can I buy some good beefheart mix???

Sorry for the rant....

rod

[mikel]

This conversation has evolved into a hypothetical level, because I dont think we actually use "pure beef heart" to feed the discus fish. The BH that we are really alluding to actually include mixes of fish, shellfish, prawns, garlic, spinach, peas, gelatin etc etc etc, even ripe old banana and anything else that might be available in the cabinet. So, like the varied content in the gut of wild fish, the BH mix is actually a real mix of lot of stuff, include lean beef heart muscle. So, there is variety to it. Then couple with a good flake or pellet food, or even a group of them, and I think you have a great diet. mike

[roclement]

This conversation has evolved into a hypothetical level, because I dont think we actually use "pure beef heart" to feed the discus fish. The BH that we are really alluding to actually include mixes of fish, shellfish, prawns, garlic, spinach, peas, gelatin etc etc etc, even ripe old banana and anything else that might be available in the cabinet. So, like the varied content in the gut of wild fish, the BH mix is actually a real mix of lot of stuff, include lean beef heart muscle. So, there is variety to it. Then couple with a good flake or pellet food, or even a group of them, and I think you have a great diet. mike

Agreed!!!

Rod

[diamond_discus]

I am certainly no expert but I started using my own BH/seafood mix 6 months ago .. and all my discus grew a lot big and more importantly .. much more "thicker" ...

[wgtaylor]

Everything i've looked for on the net involves having to subscribe or pay to be able to get the published research papers-something i'm not about to do.

What protiens, specifically, in beefheart, are beneficial to discus, and what enzymes do discus have that allow them to utilize said protiens ?

The nutritional aspects were completely unknown at the time-absolutely NO real research had been done as to what beefheart is and does to fish-none whatsoever.

Well, I suspect Vitz is just on a fishing expedition to extract information without doing research or acquiring published papers on Discus nutritional requirements.
The proteins in beefheart beneficial to discus, the enzymes discus use to digest foods and most beneficial foods have been analyzed and documented years ago.

Vitz, if you are working in the field, and you want to advance in the field you probably should purchase scientific research papers on discus nutritional requirements.
They have been available for many many years. Digging deeper into information on the web you can find a plethora of information supporting benefits of beefheart
as a healthy food source and which foods in combination with beefheart will neutralize growth and health benefits. Studies on Discus digestive enzymes (Proteases)
have been documentated. It is quite shocking to see the results of these studies.
A lot of information is free, some you will have to pay for but I don't think you are going to get spoon fed research data when you come across as a confrontational expert.

You have come to the right place for help with discus. There are people here that have had hundreds of wild discus, thousands of domestic discus and decades of experience.
Anyone worried about feeding beefheart, don't, it has been scientifically documented to be one of the best protein source for discus.

Bill

[Eddie]

Well, I suspect Vitz is just on a fishing expedition to extract information without doing research or acquiring published papers on Discus nutritional requirements.
The proteins in beefheart beneficial to discus, the enzymes discus use to digest foods and most beneficial foods have been analyzed and documented years ago.

Vitz, if you are working in the field, and you want to advance in the field you probably should purchase scientific research papers on discus nutritional requirements.
They have been available for many many years. Digging deeper into information on the web you can find a plethora of information supporting benefits of beefheart
as a healthy food source and which foods in combination with beefheart will neutralize growth and health benefits. Studies on Discus digestive enzymes (Proteases)
have been documentated. It is quite shocking to see the results of these studies.
A lot of information is free, some you will have to pay for but I don't think you are going to get spoon fed research data when you come across as a confrontational expert.

You have come to the right place for help with discus. There are people here that have had hundreds of wild discus, thousands of domestic discus and decades of experience.
Anyone worried about feeding beefheart, don't, it has been scientifically documented to be one of the best protein source for discus.

Bill

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch%C3%A9