"Beefheart"--under the microscope

[wgtaylor]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch%C3%A9

a world of info when ya take the time to look.

[Eddie]

a world of info when ya take the time to look.

[vitz]

Well, I suspect Vitz is just on a fishing expedition to extract information without doing research or acquiring published papers on Discus nutritional requirements.
The proteins in beefheart beneficial to discus, the enzymes discus use to digest foods and most beneficial foods have been analyzed and documented years ago.

Vitz, if you are working in the field, and you want to advance in the field you probably should purchase scientific research papers on discus nutritional requirements.
They have been available for many many years. Digging deeper into information on the web you can find a plethora of information supporting benefits of beefheart
as a healthy food source and which foods in combination with beefheart will neutralize growth and health benefits. Studies on Discus digestive enzymes (Proteases)
have been documentated. It is quite shocking to see the results of these studies.
A lot of information is free, some you will have to pay for but I don't think you are going to get spoon fed research data when you come across as a confrontational expert.

You have come to the right place for help with discus. There are people here that have had hundreds of wild discus, thousands of domestic discus and decades of experience.
Anyone worried about feeding beefheart, don't, it has been scientifically documented to be one of the best protein source for discus.

Bill

i am on no 'fishing expedition', nor am i involved in any research other than my own as a long time tropical fish hobbyist/'profesional aquarist'

beefheart has been linked time and time again to severe health issues in other cichlids-most notably oscars, with fatty liver degeneration and lipid deposits throughout the fish's internal structure

most of you seem to be missing my central point/intent for discussion:

there are protien sources that are either equal or superior to beefheart, from a 'piscine physiology' p.o.v. that are NOT sourced from mammals

("best protien sources" ? compared to what ? earthworm ? egg ? roe ? )

"You have come to the right place for help with discus"

i'm not coming here looking for help, necessarily, and i find that statement, as presented,along with the beginning of your reply,somewhat patronizing-

i've never had issues with getting/keeping discus healthy, eating,-never seen a 'hunger strike', bloat, etc -i've had discus spawn in lfs settings,have an excellent 'track record' solving disease issues (particularly protozoal infections on wild imports) and i'm quite sure i'll have a spawning or three at home within the next 6 months, as two of my wild blues are already 'buddying up'

i'm simply challenging the notion of the superiority of beefheart over many of the available other high protien food sources,that aren't mammal based, including the overall performance of some of the 'high end' commercially prepared food mixes available today

(beefheart may be 'good'- i'll remain contending that it's not the 'best', and may present a potential health issue if used too extensively/at all, in ways that are not externally/visibly apparent-i certainly contend that one can achieve just as good results w/out ever incorporating beefheart in a feed)

i'm also challenging some of the criteria hobbyists/breeders use for determining the true quality/superiority of foods they use, when the only comparative tools used are purely anecdotal and based on external characteristics only,with no true comparative testing, for the most part-how many studies have been done via autopsy on discus to see/count lipid deposits in their tissues ? ( what about their organs? has anyone ever done a wide range examination of discus livers comparing their status on a beefheart vs non beefheart diet ? ) if beefheart is being fed-there HAS to be at least some internal lipid depositing present

i don't mean to be 'confrontational', but rather 'critical'-in the sense of being a 'critical thinker', as opposed to a 'criticizer'

personally, based on what i know/read/learned-i do have issues w/beefheart as a food-for ANY fish, and consider it completely inappropriate-for similiar reasons to the issues i have with so many hobbyists/aquarists feeding goldfish to sw piscivores

'one of the best' does not equal 'the best'

-my 0.02

[Eddie]

Thats all great but what is that you have to gain from not using beefheart? The poor health of the fish that's lived so well and as long as any other. You worried about it suffering? What are you gaining from not using it? A fish with a nice healthy gut and liver?

Eddie

[Eddie]

Hello....Hello, Knock Knock.......anybody!

[wgtaylor]

You don't want to be confrontational, nor do I. Just momentarily appeared that way.
This probably is not going to do any good at all but,
I assumed you were establishing yourself as an expert in the field,

in addition to being a tropical fish hobbyist since the mid '70s, working in the retail/wholesale/import trade from around the mid/late '70's to the present
i presently manage husbandry and quality control issues at a (very good, imo)tropical fish store-where one of our specialties is discus-particularly wilds, and various strains from Stendker

I may have misunderstood your interest in other peoples experience using beefheart as a food source,

i am on no 'fishing expedition', nor am i involved in any research other than my own as a long time tropical fish hobbyist/'profesional aquarist'

but you said you looked everywhere for information but limited your research
and asked for help with proteins and enzymes specifically for discus.

Everything i've looked for on the net involves having to subscribe or pay to be able to get the published research papers-something i'm not about to do.

What protiens, specifically, in beefheart, are beneficial to discus, and what enzymes do discus have that allow them to utilize said protiens ?

The nutritional aspects were completely unknown at the time-absolutely NO real research had been done as to what beefheart is and does to fish-none whatsoever.

i'm not coming here looking for help, necessarily,

You condemn beefheart without proof however I have to agree if over done it could
cause fatty deposits as well as any over fed foods. A fat discus is fat.

(beefheart may be 'good'- i'll remain contending that it's not the 'best', and may present a potential health issue if used too extensively/at all, in ways that are not externally/visibly apparent
-i certainly contend that one can achieve just as good results w/out ever incorporating beefheart in a feed)

And now you are challenging every feeding regime of every discus hobbyist.
Not sure how anyone can answer all your questions. I don't think many of us
here have raised discus and then cut them open to see how healthy they are.

i'm also challenging some of the criteria hobbyists/breeders use for determining the true quality/superiority of foods they use, when the only comparative tools used are purely anecdotal
and based on external characteristics only,with no true comparative testing, for the most part-how many studies have been done via autopsy on discus to see/count lipid deposits in their tissues ?
( what about their organs? has anyone ever done a wide range examination of discus livers comparing their status on a beefheart vs non beefheart diet ? )

if beefheart is being fed-there HAS to be at least some internal lipid depositing present

Again, scientific research specifically analyzing beefheart as a food source has been thoroughly tested and the results contradict your opinion.
The research was done specifically on beefheart because of the tremendous success hobbyists and breeders have had for decades using it as a food source.

Bill

[mikel]

While science is all good and so forth, I dont think life can be base so strictly on "studies" and "analyses". These methods have their important place, but life is also about passon, and the art of XXXX. For centuries, people from around the world used "anecdotal" experiences to define and refine things that drove their passion, be it bonsai, kois, goldfish, garden plants, canaries and budgies, and yes, even more recently the discus fish. While lipids and fatty liver disease are all valid concerns, but so is trial and error, and sticking with what works and what seems to "not" work. You can have all the studies you want, but sophisticated cultures and even empires were built on generaltional experiences, and that must count for something.

I think excessive use of anything, be it BH or even any of the so called "high quality" all-in-one processed fooods, is bad for the discus. But to say that having BH in the diet as part of a varied feeding regiment that has been proven through experience to yield very satisfactory results may be a bit too much. You can use science to refine things, but I dont think you should use science to discredit experience and wisdom. JMHO mike

[Daniella]

so if the fat conceal at such low temperature, doesn't just go through the fish intestine and out it goes, like the rest of the non digestible stuff?

Doesn't mean it's good for them but where is the study where it show it's bad for them?

interesting points



while i do not want to against or for anyone on this discussion i want to point something out that Vitz previously said on the other thread that you might have missed Bill. it had to do with discus that have been eating beefheart and readily accept it. i think Vitz has a valid argument when he stated that even though they do readily take beefheart it doesn't mean that it is good for them. i understand that you have been feeding it for quite a while with no outward physical problems but if his statement is valid/fact then it would mean that even if they do eat it voraciously and it helps put on size it doesn't necessarily mean it's good for them. again, i'm not trying to go against anyone but it seems he has the fish best interest at heart here with wanting to provide the best food to expand their life span, i can't go against that standpoint because ultimately that is what we all want. for example, if you have a pet dog and they told you that beefheart will make him humongous, would you keep feeding him that just to bulk him/her up when there are so many healthy dry foods out there that would not be as detrimental to it's health? i know i'm semi-taking a side hear (devils advocate) but i wouldn't feed my dog something that might be bad for him/her in the long run even if having a larger dog is what i'm aiming for. at the end of the day our fish are our pets and their well being, just as dogs (for the sake of this argument) are the utmost priority.

[Daniella]

You are probably right because it would be a good bet that discus need a balanced diet, not just to be fed the same thing always and only one thing.

Why would anyone feed only pure beefheart always?

I see beefheart as a security if a fish don't eat much of other things and need to put up a little weight, it works great for that.

does anyone feed only pure beefheart?

I believe that high protein diets, such as one that includes just beefheart (no mixes...just the beefheart) are bad for discus. I do believe that high protein diets such as these can shorten the life span of the fish and can lead to kidney disease and failure just like high protein diets can cause in mammals. I don't use beefheart myself, though I do use higher protien content flake (Ocean Nutrition Prime Reef) along with NLS cihclid formula, frozen bloodworms, frozen brine shrimp, and occasionally live blackworms. I try to give them a variety, which I believe is best.

[ShinShin]

Does anyone hear even know any history on how beefheart first began being used in the discus hobby? You might be very surprised on the how and why of it. It had absolutely nothing to do with health, growth, ecomonics, or any other perceived benefits to the discus.

Mat

[wgtaylor]

Does anyone hear even know any history on how beefheart first began being used in the discus hobby? You might be very surprised on the how and why of it. It had absolutely nothing to do with health, growth, ecomonics, or any other perceived benefits to the discus.

Mat

Hi Mat,

I for one would like hearing about the history of beefheart if you have the time. Would be very much appreciated.
Thanks,
Bill

[MostlyDiscus]

Well I thought it might be time to jump in the pool here. Turkey hearts. They are cheaper and easy to clean. TH fiber is smaller and thus easier for the discus to pass. I add medimucal to my mix to keep the fish regular. Dont laugh untill you have tried it.

I guess my two biggest concerns are hormones and improper handleing of the meat pre processed. Bactieria is something to watch for sure.

Ed

[waverush]

Wow...from the architecture of this argument, it would seem to an unsuspecting newcomer that if one raises an opinion in opposition to the "norm" - without using attack language or encouraging boycotts, but simply stating an educated point of view - it is taken personally.

Some members are tactfully building the argument, and others are carelessly hammering away, their bottom-line being, "who cares?" If they don't care, why do they continue to take it as personally as someone who has put their life's savings in to beefheart stock?

Those are just the observations of an intelligent passer-by, and I am not arguing for or against beefheart (although the insightful information contained in this thread has me excited to try new protein sources that might actually be found in a natural habitat).

I'm just the neighbor on the porch, watching the couple next door fight on the lawn. Don't mind me.

[Tito]

Unless you can get at least ten people that have kept all of their Discus to maximum lifespan this convo will be fruitless.

Here is what we need for scientific proof.

1. Lifespan of domestic or wild Discus.

2. Hobbyist who have kept their Discus from juvenile to adulthood for entire lifespan.

3.Hobbyist who have fed Beefheart throughout fish lifespan and hobbyist who have not fed beefheart throughout fish lifespan.

If you are like me - and tend to keep fish for a year or two or three and then move the fish to a new owner - I'm sorry but our experience with the fish do not qualify.

Just as too much animal protein can proove to be harmful to human health in the long run. I tend to beleive the same to be true for Discus - but...I cannot back this up since I simply do not have the evidence to do so.

At the end of the day - feed whatever the H you feel like.

[William Palumbo]

I remember many years back when the "experts" started to push the Turkey heart. I guess the dangers of handling raw poultry and Salmonella made most re-think it. I myself would never handle raw poultry, much less work around/in water that contained it. Tho all raw meat can be dangerous, poultry is much more dangerous. Not sure what a "normal" lifespan of a Discus is, and I am sure most don't. So to say that BH can take years off of a Discus's life, is absurd, as we do not know how long they should live to start with...Bill