ammonia, kh & pH problems

[fishorama]

I'm having a sudden problem with ammonia in my water. I'm new, only had my discus for ~3 weeks, so here's a quick run down on my set up. 55g BB, 10 2 inch discus tap pH 7.2 (even after aging) GH 4, KH 2.5-3, no ammonia or nitrates. I use Prime & change 30-50% water daily plus poo vacs.

A few days ago I had an ammonia test of .5 Changed 50% but no reduction in ammonia. No nitrites, low nitrates not 0 but under 5, pH 6 or less that's as far as my API test goes. Tested the tap, everything is normal except KH is ~1. No wonder tank pH has dropped!

I used a small amount of baking soda ~1/4 teaspoon/5 gal, no change. Next day ammonia now 1. Tried 1/2 t baking soda/5g, tank then pH 6.6 or 6.8 hard to say but KH now 3=4. I think all is ok, yesterday pH 7 but ammonia still at 1.

I've read the nitrifying bacteria slows down at low pH & needs KH to work so I got a second small filter & used media from a healthy established tank to help with the ammonia. The fish a scared of the new flow but only 1 fish has shown any darkening this entire espisode. Ph now 7.2, Am 1. Unplug new filter so fish will eat. It took them only 20 min to be back to normal.

So now I'm thinking the ammonia is from the chloramine in the tap, maybe higher than usual. I think because the prime "locks up" ammonia the fish are ok especially when the pH was so lowbut now it's 7.2. Still safe?

I'm thinking a Seachem ammonia alert might work to let me see what's going on. It says it shows "free ammonia". Would this be good? Any other ideas?

[Eddie]

Seachem Prime will give false readings of ammonia, its actually ammonium that you are reading and its nothing to worry about as the bacteria will consume it anyways. As far as nitrifying bacteria and PH, its only in the very low range that it becomes less efficient. Here is your plan, as your water is exactly like mine, don't fret. Keep doing your water changes as normal and add a teaspoon or 2 of baking soda. This will help the KH a little and you won't have to worry about the PH dropping.

Have you aged your water overnight in a container using an airstone to see what the PH does?

Eddie

[fishorama]

Thank you Eddie! I haven't been sleeping over this situation. I haven't retested my aged tap since this happened. It used to be stable at 7 or 7.2 but I used to have a bit more KH. I remember this low KH happened before, maybe seasonal. Not usally a big deal in other tanks but plants would like more too. I'm a casual tester so I think I'll add some baking soda to other tanks too.

PH <6 is low to me but I know what you mean. I worried I was pH shocking them every WC.

So how will I know if the "bad" ammonia level shows up? Or am I ok with hoping daily water changes & prime are enough? The Seachem alert is only~$7

[poconogal]

I used to use the Seachem ammonia alert and found it great. Slight color change alerts you to the presence of ammonia. But, the color change is VERY slight at the low levels of ammonia and the alert can be hard to read, especially for someone that doesn't have a "good" eye for color.

From the bottle: "Prime converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank's biofilter." So, you will still get an ammonia reading when testing because there is still ammonia in the water, only converted to a non-toxic form after using Prime.

You also mentioned in your first paragraph no nitrAtes. Is that a typo or did you really mean nitrAtes? Was your tank fully cycled when you added your Discus?

If your KH continues to remain low, as an alternative to baking soda, you can add a small amount of crushed coral to your filter to boost and maintain it. You could start with about one cup and test after about a week to see where your KH is at. Add more or remove to adjust further. Once you find the proper amount to use for a KH of around 4 (3 would be the minimum needed to buffer your PH and keep it stable), you'll be all set.

[Jhhnn]

I use the Seachem liquid/drop ammonia kit and recommend it highly. I use and like their nitrite/nitrate kit as well.

As you've discovered, soft water is unstable water wrt pH, and it seems likely that's the underlying cause of your ammonia issues- nitrification basically stopped at whatever low value occurred. And because you currently can't tell the difference between ammonia and ammonium, the issues are obscured by lack of data- you're left guessing. Your problems may not have been ammonia, at all, but rather just extremely low pH. Even discus are affected when pH falls off the scale.

Nifty article and chart wrt ammonia-

http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Art...ts/Ammonia.htm

Using Prime, the ammonia/ammonium relationship is even better than that, a lot better.

Your water supplier may be able to help a lot wrt understanding your tap water- many have websites, and many others can be extremely informative over the telephone. Seasonal hardness changes are common, even here in Denver, where Denver Water delivers a really good and consistent product.

Local aquarium groups can also be a good resource.

Hopefully, others who deal with very soft water and RO water will chime in, recommend products and methods to stabilize your water. You may want to use a product like R/O Right- dunno, because I've never had to deal with super soft water issues. I'd only be guessing.

I do know that domestic discus (particularly young fish) are entirely happy in fairly hard water at any pH less than 8.0, so you have a lot of room in that direction... Some people are entirely successful keeping and rearing in water harder and more alkaline than that, too...

[Don Trinko]

As aluded to above many test kits test total ammonia. Free ammonia is the dangerous kind. The Seachem test kit and some others will test for both free and total ammonia. It is comforting to know that your free ammonia is 0 and the reading is from bound ammonia.
When you use prime or other chemicals the ammonia is bound into a harmless state that your bacteria will eat eventualy but it will still show in most ammonia tests.
The fact that you are getting an ammonia reading is a problem. Most likely it means that your biofilter is not fully developed for the bio load but if you have cloramines in your water that also could be the reason.
It would be interesting to test before and after a wc. All IMO; Don T.

[Darrell Ward]

Are you sure the tank is cycled? This is first thing I thought of when you said your test readings were no nitrite or nitrate, with only ammonia showing with a 3 week old setup. I think that even with the extra established filter running, it may not enough to keep your tank from cycling. Don't mess with your PH, this is a bad road to travel. I have very soft water as well. It's not a big deal, as long as you don't mess with the PH. It will level out on it's own, and do no harm to your fish. It will never level out if you start messing with it. As I said, my water is extremely soft, and I've kept discus in it since 1999 without a problem, even wilds.

[Jhhnn]

As aluded to above many test kits test total ammonia. Free ammonia is the dangerous kind. The Seachem test kit and some others will test for both free and total ammonia. It is comforting to know that your free ammonia is 0 and the reading is from bound ammonia.
When you use prime or other chemicals the ammonia is bound into a harmless state that your bacteria will eat eventualy but it will still show in most ammonia tests.
The fact that you are getting an ammonia reading is a problem. Most likely it means that your biofilter is not fully developed for the bio load but if you have cloramines in your water that also could be the reason.
It would be interesting to test before and after a wc. All IMO; Don T.

I think you're right, although I think also that it's easy for casual testers to charge off in the wrong direction when using Prime and test kits that measure only total ammonia. "Casual tester" often means that they don't test until they have problems. When they do, the false high ammonia readings give them apoplectic fits... so they add more Prime, test again, and come to the conclusion that Prime "doesn't work"...

Fishorama is obviously more savvy than that, recognizing that high total ammonia is a symptom of some deeper problem, but the ammonia misinformation remains confusing and alarming when it doesn't have to be, not with the right test kit...

It'd be nice to know which of the other test kits (if any) measure both free and total ammonia- I've never gone to the trouble to research that. The Seachem kit can be hard to find in an urgent situation, so it'd be good to be able to offer an alternative to people who are having trouble...

[fishorama]

Thank you all for the help. The tank filter was cycled on a healthy non-discus tank (not the preferred method here I know now). The 0 nitrates,0 ammonia was in reference to my tap water, some people do have them in tap water. I also could test Prime treated tap for ammonia, how long do you think it might take to show?

The tank shows a slight nitrate reading, not the yellow of 0 but not the orange of 5. It made no difference in nitrate or ammonia reading when I added a second cycled filter after ~20 hours, it has never shown any nitrIte, so I don't think it's really a cycling problem.

The fish did show some stress after water changes, 3 temporarily darkened, most were a bit nervous. When I saw the ammonia I thought that was the problem. But now I think it was a reaction to the temporary pH shift from the 50% new 7.2 water. Not any better for the fish I'm afraid.

I saw Florida crushed coral, is that ok or is there something more I should look for? Does it also raise Ph much? The Seachem Ammonia Alert sounds worth trying, thanks poconogal. Not sure how good my eye is judging color, my husband & I often differ on some API tests.

Nancy

[Apistomaster]

Lots of men cannot read the colors on some tests correctly. It is due to slight color blindness often so slight they are unaware of it.
I have personal experience with the problem.
Electronic meters solves all but nitrogen cycle problems.

Your tank is new enough that even though you prepared the filter on an established tank it still hasn't finished becoming established.
I would not attempt any adjustments.
Instead, just change more water. Your discus are more likely still frightened from being in a new environment rather than experiencing any real problems. The fact that adding the filter frightened them is evidence of that. Discus become tame enough you can do quite a lot of work in and around their tank without causing them to be frightened.
I'm sure if you change about 2/3 of the tank volume 2 X week the Discus will become used to the activity and all will be well in the end.

[fishorama]

Apistomaster, are you saying less water changes than 50% daily to allow more nitrate to build up, or...? I tested for ammonia every day the first 2 weeks, it was always 0, until Tues or Wed. Wouldn't the ammonia have shown up before then? I've only seen a faint trace of ammonia once or twice on many other tanks using established filter media & not this time. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I would like to understand.

I've suggested my husband may be slightly colorblind but "he's a chemist, he knows how to read color changes".

Anyway I bought an ammonia alert & some crushed coral. I think I'll stick with baking soda for now & wait until I clean the filter to try some, just a little until I get a feel for what it does.

[Eddie]

It's funny how the more posts there are, the more confusing it becomes. LOL

[Apistomaster]

Hi fishorama,

What I think is that your tank is nearly cycled and in a few more days your worrisome ammonia reading will drop to zero.

I think discus are hardy enough to weather through the next few days without suffering any setbacks.

I take a more laid back approach to keeping Discus than many of the forum members based on the sum of my over 4 decades experience keeping and breeding discus.

Changing more water more frequently than I suggested never hurts but I don't find it is that important.

I only mentioned the colorblindness as a possibility. A mild form is very common among men and most are unaware of what kind and to what degree they have. The shades of color difference with certain colormetric test methods are often very subtle. I did not say it is a universal problem.

I believe in the KISS approach to all fish keeping and discourage trying to correct temporary conditions by adding chemicals. There are times when creating special conditions for keeping and breeding some fish do require chemicals such as when a species needs a low pH of 4.0. The facts are that if your pH is 6.6 to 6.8, the ammonia reading you reported, which is merely a temporary condition, will not have a significant effect on your discus.
Within days, this whole issue will be history and you may begin moving on to routine maintenance.

It will not be long before the 10 Discus will be too crowded in your 55 gal. 55 gal tanks make poor discus tanks. The have an abysmal surface area to volume ratio. Consider it a temporary aquarium. I would move them to a larger aquarium as soon as they reach 3 inches. I recommend providing about 1sq.ft. surface area and as close to 10 gal of water as possible for each adult Discus. They should have this much room prior to reaching maturity so they can reach their full potential adult size.

[fishorama]

Thanks for explaining that for me. I'm sure once I feel comfortable with my discus care & they settle into my routine things will be easier.

I realize the tank is a temporary 1 & 10 is pushing it. I had only wanted 6-8 fish but let my husband convince me we needed more. The plan is for a 6ft 125-180g, electrician coming next week as a first step.

[Roxanne]

..

Anyway I bought an ammonia alert & some crushed coral. I think I'll stick with baking soda for now & wait until I clean the filter to try some, just a little until I get a feel for what it does.

..baking soda won't keep the hardness up and you will be adding it forever...in a 55, use about what fits in your palm of crushed coral, in a filter bag..if you use too much it will raise the ph really high...monitor the ph and adjust how much CC is in the bag...you won't have to muck around with it after that..

Rox