Mature 90G planted tank...

[judy]

"did it take longer to grow them out in the planted tank even with the extra filtration, etc? Did they grow to a reasonably full size? I have read from others that the discus raised in a planted tank might be a little timid having gotten used to the cover provided by the plants - do you find this to be true?"

#1. I don't think it did. In fact, two youngsters from my first and second batch are now actually bigger than their parents, and they're about a year old.
#2.Well, they're still growing-- but it looks as if they will reach the sizes of the ones bought at four inches and grew out-- again, though, in the planted tank. Those ones are also still growing, very slowly. But the four of them are now two pairs and are ni BB tanks for spawning purposes.
#3. They don't seem any more timid than any other discus I've seen; as with other tanks, there's a pecking order. But the couple who tend to get chased have places to hide with a planted tank.

[theblondskeleton]

Good point, Eddie - and thanks. One of the reasons I am pursuing this is that it is not often done. I am confident in my ability to keep up with the maintenance needs of a tank like this, as my regular maintenance regime is more stringent even than Richard's - though my experience with discus pales a bit in comparison. The variables between the two setups may hinge upon local water quality - which is something I will certainly have to find out from Richard.

And hey, Judy! Post a pic! I'd love to see anything that can help me on my way. Few things in my mind rival the sight of a planted tank with discus.

Eddie - you mention foods. I know a lot of discus keepers feed homemade mixes of beef heart, shrimp, vitamins, and veggies. I understand the beef heart as a high protein source for growing juvies, but beyond that, what are the benefits vs say bloodworms and commercial frozen discus mix? (specifically the SF Bay brand - it's what I currently use for my angels, Rams, and rasboras) Can one still get good growth from juvies on this diet, given the same frequency of feeding/wc/etc?

I feel like I'm at a private seminar, here... Thanks, all!

[judy]

I'll post a pic as soon as the Amazon sword gets moved a little left and forward, I've placed the anubias more where I want them, moved over some of the cryptocoryne that's crowding the front glass, and I've tidied up the ambulia, promise.
Re feeding: I have never fed beefheart as I believe it filths up the tank much more quickly than other foods, and in a planted tank it's a lot harder to find stray bits of beefheart they haven't eaten, whereas with other foods, the clean-up crews do a fine job hoovering up leftovers.
At one point when the boys needed to be wormed, I bought some medicated beefheart from my fish guy-- and they hated it. Wouldn't touch it.
I do feed: bloodworms (was Hikari until the Canadian government banned bloodworms from facilities uninspected by Canadian inspectors-- and really,what Asian bloodworm factory's gonna pay to have a Canadian flown over when the Canadian market for bloodworms is so small), Omega One flake, New Life Spectrum discus formula.
I plan to try to get them onto mysis shrimp, as the local discus guy, who imports only wilds, tells me mysis shrimp are the best. He claims they do not constipate the discus, but give just enough bulk that the poop's nice and fat.
But he says you have to starve them for a week to get them to try the shrimp and I can't bear to let my babies go hungry...
I'm not familiar with commercial frozen discus mix, but if its got a good protein base and added vitamins and the like, I would guess it would be great for them.
And by the way, blondskeleton, I think it's wonderful that you're doing your homework well in advance of taking the plunge, rather than running out, getting a big bunch of discus, and only then starting to ask questions.
Your fish will fare so much the better for it.

[theblondskeleton]

Thanks, Judy! I made the mistake of diving in with plants a few years ago - and hacked it up pretty well. The last few years have been spent perfecting my planted tank with the ultimate goal of adding discus. I've been patient so far, so it would be a shame to foil that by getting hasty now!

Other conversations I have had have pretty much confirmed what you say about beef heart in a planted tank. I'll make sure that the food is well rounded. Perhaps someday I'll experiment with my own blend - but for now, I'll lean on the experts. I'll see if I can find a good source for the mysis shrimp, as well. I feel most fish benefit from a varied diet, and I have a suspicion that discus are no different in this respect.

By the way - I'm Sean. It's nice to meet you all!

[DiscusFreakaZoid]

All I got to say is that is a wicked planted tank, very nice.

As far as being wary of in a planted tank, I dont like pigeon blood discus in a planted tank, no matter how nice they appear to be, but thats me.


All the best with your discus!

Eddie

i concur with ED on this. pigeons dont look good in planted tanks imo. Pepperring seems to be more prominent when pigeons are in a planted tank and there colors seem to darken overall. Some albinos would look nice in there. A+ on the aquascaping. If you can keep your planted tank that pristine shouldnt have much problems raising some healthy discus.

[judy]

uh, one additional thought. you had mentioned you would raise your tank temp to 82. If your plants can handle it, it might be better to have the temp at 84. The fish will have slightly higher metabolisms and will grow faster, and 84 is a very comfortable temp for them.
If you ever see an ich outbreak, a week of 90 will knock it down.

[fishorama]

If you really love panda corys check out oiapoquensis, very similar or even cuter & can handle discus temps http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog...species_id=123

[mcjoe]

Does this delicate plant make it difficult to clean the bottom of the tank?

[theblondskeleton]

Thanks for the faith, DiscusFreakaZoid!

mcjoe - Not especially. It's not as delicate as it may seem Tiny yes, and difficult to establish, but it's pretty hardy when it comes down to it. I just pulse the gravel vac over it, and the mulm that has settled beneath it comes right up. Mind you, however, that I used Fluorite Black Sand as my substrate where I planted the HC. The fine sand anchors it much better than other substrates.

I actually find it more difficult to vacuum around the stems and stones

fishorama - I think we found a winner Adorable!

Judy - I'll give it a try, though that might be pushing it a bit. My crypts may not handle the temp that high. They are doing fine today at 80.5 F, but there is still a ways to go...

[TankWatcher]

have read from others that the discus raised in a planted tank might be a little timid having gotten used to the cover provided by the plants - do you find this to be true?

A lot of people do say that. My tank is planted, but I have left a plantless beach area in the front of the tank. The discus seldom hide amongst the plants. They are always out and about where they can be seen. When my hand is in the tank for plant maintenance, they can't help themselves but to come & bump against me looking for food. They eat from my hand. So, no IME, I haven't found it to be true.

Depending up on the crypt type, they should be fine in discus temps. My planted tank is 28 deg celcius (82.4 F) which from what I've read is an acceptable temperature compromise for plants & discus. Check out plant profiles on www.tropica.com which also give temperature range for plants, including cyrpts.

[ChloroPhil]

Hey man, you're putting Discus in there? That's going to be gorgeous! What varieties? Pidgeon Blood would look really nice with all that L. aromatica.

Regards,
Phil

[theblondskeleton]

Hey, Phil!

Yeah, I've had it in the plan for a couple years, but wanted to nail the plants down first. I'm still up in the air about the strains, though. I really like White Butterflies and Scorpions. I'm currently thinking a combination of White and Blue Scorpions, if I can find any that really excite me.

I'm also getting the itch to rescape the tank - I even ordered some wood from Manzanita Burlworks - though I know if I do, it will change my discus delivery timeline.

Other changes on the list: lighter background, extra filtration, new handcrafted stand and hood (require tools and space). Most of these are secondary, but still fun to think about

Thanks for the tips, Robyn! I also have Christel Kasselmann's book Aquarium Plants, which not only covers optimal range for hundreds of plants but also contains a chart in the appendix listing maximum temp tolerance for each species. For Crypt. Wendtii it lists 30 C, so I should be ok. (PS- IMO this is a FANTASTIC book no planted tank enthusiast should be without)

[Eddie]

Good point, Eddie - and thanks. One of the reasons I am pursuing this is that it is not often done. I am confident in my ability to keep up with the maintenance needs of a tank like this, as my regular maintenance regime is more stringent even than Richard's - though my experience with discus pales a bit in comparison. The variables between the two setups may hinge upon local water quality - which is something I will certainly have to find out from Richard.

And hey, Judy! Post a pic! I'd love to see anything that can help me on my way. Few things in my mind rival the sight of a planted tank with discus.

Eddie - you mention foods. I know a lot of discus keepers feed homemade mixes of beef heart, shrimp, vitamins, and veggies. I understand the beef heart as a high protein source for growing juvies, but beyond that, what are the benefits vs say bloodworms and commercial frozen discus mix? (specifically the SF Bay brand - it's what I currently use for my angels, Rams, and rasboras) Can one still get good growth from juvies on this diet, given the same frequency of feeding/wc/etc?

I feel like I'm at a private seminar, here... Thanks, all!

Man, missed this one!

Beefheart, not required but it does put good/fast size on fish. Your fish can do fine with a mixed variety of foods ranging from pellets, flakes, freeze dried foods, commercially prepared frozen foods. I prefer not to feed bloodworms but many do just fine. I'd stay away from using bloodworms as the main/bulk of the fishes diet. Discus require more nutrients and a good pellet/flake will suffice.

People like to make homemade mixes because they can control exactly what goes into the mix. I used to prepare a seafood mix that worked extremely well, with a base consisting of Yellow fin tuna, Cod, salmon, clams and/or shrimps. My fish loved it! As of now, I use a mix with a Shrimp/Liver base and this is super clean. Shrimp is like super glue and wont foul the water.

So its entirely up to you. I like to take it to the next level in growing out my fish by making their food. Ensuring/improving their health, growth and beauty.

Eddie

[theblondskeleton]

Sounds delicious! For the fish, I mean...

I know Dick Au recommends green shrimp as a base. Liver, eh? Sounds protein-y and a lot cleaner than beef heart. I may pursue that in the future.

I think I have decided on getting at least 3 White Scorpions and 3 Blue Scorpions. I think the solid colors will allow the discus to stand out amongst the bold colors and textures of the aquascape, without detracting from it. I had considered red spotted greens for a while, as well as a group of browns, but I'm a little nervous about getting wilds right off the bat. Perhaps another tank.

To limit peppering I'm likely going to re-scape the tank with a white sand foreground and some driftwood and HC as an accent border plant as opposed to a foreground carpet. I'd like to stick with some off the same plants, as I love them, but I may switch it up a bit. I'll also be scraping the black paint off of the background and repainting it with lighter colors - possibly a light blue. I will post some preliminary drawings soon.

I want to thank everyone who posted advice for me here. All of it has been well considered and incredibly helpful. I feel it's always wise to consider many angles before setting out on a project, and I couldn't have come to a better decision without you all!

[ChloroPhil]

I'd recommend sticking to 5 discus, any more than that and you'll get crowded tank syndrome quickly. Even though there's room in there for the fish, with all the plants the tank will become visually cluttered quickly. I had that problem with my 90g tank years ago.

Regards,
Phil