Fishking, my experience. Very Long Post.

[roclement]

Hello everyone…I write this with a sad heart since I do not want to affect someone’s business in a negative way but…I am at a point with no options and don’t want anyone else to go through what I am going through at the moment…I have been a member of the forum since 2002 and this is the first time I am doing this…

I placed an order with Fishking USA vie their pre-order thread for this last shipment, actually Bobtools ordered for me and we shared shipping, same as we did before…I ordered 5 two inch Standing Egg BD at $20 each, and 2 two inch Red Turks at $10.50 each…order was accepted, payment requested was sent.

Once fish had arrived shipping arrangements were made and delivery confirmed…a couple of days before shipping was scheduled they informed Bobtools that they did not have my red Turks but could replace them for 3 inchers …mind you we had already confirmed the fish and sent portion of the payment…I declined since at $10.50 a fish it would be a treat, at $26 a fish it is not worth it IMO…asked that just send me my BD and that was ok since Bobtools was receiving fish anyway shipping cost would be amortized…first red flag went up in my head…maybe it’s just me but…after asking for money you tell me that you can’t fill the order…at least offer the replacement fish at the discounted price but…that’s just my opinion…moving on…

I call Bob on Tuesday morning and he tells me he is not sure what is going on…he never received a tracking number for the fish so we have no clue what time the fish are coming in, he calls Fishking and Mandy tells him they should be here at some point during the day (?)…then sends him a tracking number…it’s 40 degrees outside…kind of cool for fish to spend the day in the UPS truck…fish arrive at Bob’s house at 11:00am or so…maybe the worst has past…wait…box is wet…here we go…

We open the box and in the middle of the newspapers is a bag with Bob’s fish, and a bag with mine…inside it five miniscule bags with a fish in each…never seen such small bags in my life, they were 4 inches in diameter, the fish could barely move! Two of the bags have no air in them and the water temperature is 60 degrees…I rush the fish home and acclimate them via drip slowly as not to shock them…they are in bad shape…one looks ok…

Fish go in the tank, they look horrible, bad, clamped fins, burnt fins, and dark areas that look like nerve damage on the bodies…these fish were beat up! I call Fishking…

I explain to them what’s going on and the state these fish are in…I send them pictures via e-mail…the explanation I was given for the small bags was “to save in shipping costs…” at my expense and at the fishes suffering??? Second explanation…”two inch fish are difficult to offer and ship”…so why did you!? Regarding my incomplete order…”oh we did not receive them…” so why did I pre-order and pay and not get notified earlier????

They tell me they are going to call Mr. Cheng and contact me back…no response for the rest of the day…

Second day…one fish is dead…one looks ok…three look bad, clamped fins, frazzled, hiding…not eating…no response from Fishking…at around 3:00pm my time I e-mail them…”what’s going on…?” Three hours later the reply, this is copied from their e-mail along with my reply:

“Hi Rod,
We can do the full refund if you ship the fish back ALIVE. Or we can credit back each fish for $5.0 because that's what we made on each fish.
We won't ship with UPS as much since they are the main reason damaging the box.

Thank you very much for your understanding.

James & Mandy”

MY REPLY

“...so..I am speechless...now I have to send the fish back! Alive if I want a credit of any sort...I have to find a box...bag them...pay for shipping...and put the fish through the same stress as they were put through just in order to receive some sort of compensation from you!!! I don't ship fish! Notice the emphasis on ALIVE...so if the fish get there dead then I am **** out of luck? I am done with this...tomorrow I will post my experiences on Simply with pictures and let the members deal with it...talk about bad service!
I spent $100 in fish, plus $50 some bucks for my portion of shipping and you want me to accrue more expenses by shipping them back to you and IF they get there ALIVE you will refund me...if not you want to give me $20...please keep your money! I'll try to save these fish, one is dead already...shame on you!
Rod”

So my options are…take $20 bucks and be done with it, or spend over $100 for shipping to send 4 fish back that may not make it anyway to receive a $100 credit from them…so if I follow their logic this is what happens…

I spend $150 for five 2 inch fish ($100 for fish, around $50 for my portion of shipping)
I currently have 3 fish in bad shape, one dead, one ok
I send the 4 back and maybe get $80 credit; I pay an extra $100 or so for shipping…
So I end up with zero fish…at an expense to me of $250 - $80 = $170…did I mention that I end up with no fish!? And maybe…if they get there alive…I would get $80…does this make any sense????

First off…if the fish were in condition to ship, we wouldn’t be having this conversation…second if, as stated in the e-mail above from them, they don’t use UPS much…why did they??? And if UPS if to blame…sue them! Not my fault!!!

I choose to do the following…I do not want their $20 offer…read the e-mail…again not my problem how much you make per fish…they cost ME $20 per fish plus shipping…and I will try to nurse these fish back to health…they ended up costing me $37.50 per fish…for sickly, beaten up, BD…not a good deal…

Now they reply to my e-mail:

“Rod,

Our apology for not letting you understand what we had offered. We meant, if you don't want to keep the fish, you can send them back with full refund. But if you do want to keep the fish, we'll credit back $5 for each fish since the shipping process damage the fish fin. That's what we meant.
It is your right to do whatever you want on Simply, but there won't be any stores or sponsers will do full refund with shipping cost if fish is back dead.
Our uncle owns a fish wholesale near our place for more than 14 years. And based on his expert experiences, water around 60 degree is very normal, especially when it's winter. As long as the fish arrived live, they will recover soon.
Please let us know what you think, and we'll do what we should do.

Best Regards,”

My Response:

“James and Mandy,

Thanks for the clarification, it does make more sense this way...I can't send the fish back, I don't ship fish...I understand your offer and think it's fair, the only thing that I ask is that you refund me fully for one fish since it died and I will accept the $5 for the others, that would make the refund a total of $40, $5 for four fish, and $20 for the fish that didn't make it. I think that's a fair compromise since the shipping responsability is yours and even tought it was alive when it got to my house, it was dead this morning.

I don't mean to tell you how to do business but I have been around this hobby all my life...I've been a member at Simply since 2002...60 degree water is not normal for discus, even in the winter, 70 degree is normal...65 acceptable...having said that, if UPS is responsible for damaging the box and as you stated, you don't like to use them, stop using them! Also the small bags don't save you money...the fish suffer in there and arrive in bad shape, they cost you money. The heat packs were cold and wrapped in plastic...they should not be wrapped in plastic, they need air in order to produce heat.

Fedex has a rate per box size that allows for a lot more weight so it does not matter how much water you put into the bags because the weight does not affect the cost of shipping, I received the same size box from Kenny, with 16 three to four inch fish in it! All in bigger bags much heavier in weight! The shipping cost was roughly the same as yours...it can be done, just don't do it to the expense of the fish.

Lastly, one thing that upset me a lot is that I wanted the Red Turks and you accepted the order and payment and only informed Bob that you didn't have them once we were planning the shipping date...I understand that sometimes fish don't show up as expected but you could have told me sooner, or you could have offered the larger fish at the pre-order price and not at your regular retail, just my opinion and something for you to think about.

Bottom line is I have four fish in my tanks and maybe they will turn out OK...I will accept $40 and be done with it, anything else is up to you. I will not post on Simply and call it resolved.

Rod”

This was sent to them ( I have all these e-mails, with time stamps and have forwarded them to Al). I don’t hear back from them again…

Until this point this is a conversation between me and them, no one else is involved…Bob and them exchanged e-mails were apparently he suggested to them to re-fund me my money since I was very unhappy and their lack of action or response is making me mad and I may post on Simply…they apparently agreed with him and e-mailed him that they would send him my money back (we used Bob’s paypal for the order) so he could give it to me…Bob calls me and tells me this, I am beyond happy since it is more then I expected! SO we move on…

This morning I get an e-mail forwarded from Bob from Fishking acusing him of threatening them and trying to get money from them…they use my e-mail, that they never replied to, and tell Bob that I am more reasonable then him, etc…now keep in mind that this e-mail was not meant to me so I will not post it here, Bob can do so if he chooses. So now I understand why they were not responding to me…they agreed to something with Bob and then realized that they could get away with less and decided to change the game…my response to their e-mail to Bob:

“WOW...now I know what is really going on here! So Bob was trying to help you guys out by comunicating my dissapointment in my order and you were delaying responding to me just so you could try to play both sides of the deal!

My e-mail to you came without the knowledge of your conversations with Bob...you obviuosly were talking to him about this before responding to me...my e-mail to you was a compromise since I just want to stop dealing with you and believed, based on your short responses, and lack of follow-up, that if I could get anything back from you would be better than nothing!

As of righ now you haven't even bothered answering my e-mail but managed to use it against Bob who was just trying to help you! Too bad you didn't listen! Now he forwarded this e-mail to me and I must reply since you involved me in it! From what I read Bob didn't even ask for anything for himself, he pleaded on my behalf (thanks Bob!) and on behalf of your business...to bad you were not able to see it!

Please keep your money, I don't care for any re-fund! As I believe you would see it as "hush money", I will however post on Simply, my entire transaction and e-mail exchange so people know who they would be dealing with. I am very sorry it is coming to this, posting on Simply is not a threat. it is not meant as leverage, it is a service to other people that belong to that forum, people that like me, has come to trust sponsors, and the place Al is running. I have copied him on all my comunications with you and am doing the same with this e-mail.

By the way...you did promise Bob a 5inch fish and didn't deliver, the fact that he didn't ask you for anything as refund is very honorable of him, he chose to look after me and not himself...I will touch base with Al and see what he wants me to do.”

Fishking Reponse

“Rod,

We received your email at 3:47pm, and we replied it at 5:34pm. We received Bob's email at 5:33pm, and we replied it at 5:44pm. We didn't play with you!!!
We were being honest. “

My Response

“I never received a reply from you untill 6 minutes ago...I have the e-mails with time stamps and and forwarded them to AL and Bob as well, I emailed you yesterday and did not receive a reply until six minutes ago! Oddly enough when I just wrote this one in response to what you wrote Bob, you replied right away...you are not Honorable people! Shame on you! Do you think I am a kid? Don;t try to play nice with me and use my e-mail against someone else.

Rod”

And now the story changes…

“Money has been sent.


English isn't our 1st language, it needs time to think and type. That's all we can say.”

And again…

Did you see the email that we replied to Bob said we'll pay you $100 back? We were on the way to Canada rescuing fish when your email arrived, so we didn't reply it right away until we got to the destination. And after we sent your email, we received Bob's, and we replied it right away. we didn't and never fool people. We have all the email stamps can prove.

My response…

“I see, so now you are contracticting your own previous statement,,,wich is it? You sent me an e-mail yesterday right away..? Oh no! You never did because English isn't your first language...very confusing! By the way...it isn't mine either, I am from Brasil and never tried to use that as an excuse for poor business practices...I'll decide if I will keep your money or not. I am also impressed by your sudden quick response time...interesting...!

Rod”

Ever since this exchange James has re-funded me $100 for my fish so I was in for about $60 for shipping expenses, not bad however…the saga continues…

All the fish in the same room get sick, not only the ones from Fishking…all of my Rose Reds that I had since fry from Bobtools are now sick! I received a message in my phone from James after Al (brewmaster) called him. Here is the e-mail I sent him the next day, December 4th.

“James,

I got your phone call message, I was at work and could not answer the phone, I work very late here but will try to give you a call later on today as I know there is a big time difference between where you are and me here in the East Coast.

Thanks for the appologie, it is very much accepted and I believe it to be sincere. Also thanks for the refund, Bob told me he received it and will forward it to me soon, it was very generous of you.

I have a problem with the fish being sick, and now my other fish in the tank besides them are sick as well! They are all on the surface gasping for air, mucous is coming out from their bodies, fins are clamped, and they stopped eating! All the fish I have in my other tank have been with me since birth and were perfectly healthy and now both tanks are sick! Luckily for me all my other tanks are in a different room and have not been afected!

Al (brewmaster) mentioned to me that you seem to have been having problems with all the fish from the shipment with similar symptoms and that Mr. Cheng may have sent you some medication, is there any chance I can get some help here? How do I treat this? What is the medication? Can you send me some ASAP? Al mentioned it may be airborne so I will do my best to keep the other systms away from this. Any help or nfo appreciated here.

Thanks!”
I called James and spoke to him briefly, he explained to me that they are having issues with their supplier, was very sorry and would do right by everyone affected. He also told me that they would stop selling fish for at least 3 months until they sorted everything out.
James sends the meds out UPS ground, here is the tracking number:

http://wwwapps.ups.com/WebTracking/p...098E0393169150

Scheduled delivery is 12/11/09…so much for ASAP!!!! It was shipped on the 4th!
James also sends an e-mail out recommending dropping PH down to 4.5 (!!!), my reply to him:

“James,

I would be careful recomending PH drops, a decrease of that magnitute would take more than a week to achieve properly, by that time if the medication doesn't work, the fish will be dead already!

The fish can suffer much more if someone drops their PH suddenly, you know some people would take that as a solution to the problem a drop the PH in one shot using some chemical aid.

Question for you...I see you have fish in Aquabid for sale, I think it's because you forgot to pull the sales or the fish listed are in a different system, careful so you don;t end up with sick fish out there or a poor Aquabid rating. Just trying to help.

I'll call you when the meds come in!

Thanks again!

Rod”

My e-mail from today 12/08/09

“so far I have not received the medication and the fish started dying, one dead of my rose red, fish are looking really bad!

Rod”

No replies…



Some clarifications:

Bobtools is more than welcome to post his personal experience here if he so chooses, this thread is about my experience and I don’t mean to speak for him.

During my phone calls to Fishking I told them just to let me know what they proposed to do, I told them that I WOULD NOT post on Simply without giving them a chance to deal with the situation first…bad things happen in shipping…how you deal with the problem dictates what kind of business you run.

I notified them via my e-mail that I was going to post here, read their e-mails…maybe this forum and it’s members are not important for their business

I made Al (brewmaster) aware of this whole situation via PM and have copied him in every e-mail and on this post so this would not come as a surprise to him since they are sponsors here.

Since this whole thing started I have been giving Fishking the benefit of the doubt about their intentions, and now I have been holding this post in hopes that they would pay me for my lost fish and the ones that will eventually die. No more…I am one of the lucky ones since these fish are in a different room then my wilds, and my fish from Hans and Kenny. I am loosing the blues from Fishking, and the Rose Reds from Bob, the ones I have had since they were fry and are now 3.5 to 4 inches…other people are loosing more than that.

I honestly feel that I we to this Forum to share this experience, it is more important that I do this then to get re-funded for my loses.

Al I am very sorry for the headache that may come from this.

Jut my honest experience, any questions just ask.


Rod

[moik]

I am sad to read this..It takes alot of hard work and experience to be a sponsor selling discus...Not for one second to think how lucky we are to have the great sponsors here at Simply.. Just hope there is a "silver lining" at the end of this..Best wishes.

[roclement]

they are sponsors here...that's why I notified Brewmaster before I posted.

Rod

[moik]

I know very well they are a sponsor here at Simply...New sponsor/new customers/new experiences..All part of the big picture/history being made..I have been taken advantage of 3 times in the past...Still remember like it was yesterday. That is why I deal with certain individuals and they are my very good friends now..Hang in there..

Rod[/QUOTE]

[roclement]

thanks, I had misunderstood you...this is a first personaly for me...very disapointed.So far I have received pm from two other members that are having similar issues, and of course Bobtools, hope people can get some money back as promised, I just want other people to be aware.

Rod

[Lotusan]

I've ordered from james and mandy twice and had a good experience. I was going to put in a big order this time but seemed like the price was a bit high as compared to my last order so I didn't. Lucky for me because I only have one fish room but have about 50 discus. I could only imagine if all of them got sick!!! Hang in there Rod.

[moik]

It is only human to make mistakes.It could happen to anyone at anytrime.....Once the problem is reconized..The main thing is how the matter is handled there after..That is how I would draw my conclusion..

[roclement]

thanks all for the support! i just want to point out that these are my experiences and do not want to speak for other people here. Bobtools has authorized me to use his name and message, other people that Pm'd me have to post their own experiences if they so choose...all I can say is that the owner of this forum has been copied in all my e-mail exchanges, and pm's I have received here.

Treatment wise now I am conducting very large water changes twice a day, and using salt as a tonic. I did not want to use meds since I am not sure what is coming in the mail and did not want to add something that may interact with their medication. It seems form what I heard from other people that this is a bacterial infection that may be airborne...I am lucky that these fish are in my room and not in my main fish room!

Rod

[brewmaster15]

All-

Sadly... Disease outbreaks can happen in this hobby, and can be devastating to both buyers and sellers.. I have been on both sides of the fence there in the past as have many many others.....This incident is very unfortunate and Rod has sent me all correspondence as he said he did. I have spoken with James of Fishking here and I can only hope that Fishking resolves these issues fairly and ASAP with those affected. I will be evaluating this matter as it pertains to sponsorship status very carefully. Affected SimplyDiscus members can contact me by pm if they wish to make me aware of their experiences privately and confidentially.

As stated many times before in this section...the Livestock Review section is solely for personal experiences..I ask all members to share their Personal First hand Experiences with Fish king in this thread... BOTH Positive and NEGATIVE.... I ask all those that have not had direct experiences to share to please adhere to forum rules and refrain from commenting... Taking sides and spouting off opinions based on limited information is not fair to either Buyers or Sellers... and may impair any possible resolutions...such posts will be removed.

Thankyou,
Al

[DISCUS USA]

Rod im just curious how are Bobs fish from that same order you guys made?Hope your fish pull thru and you get this whole thing sorted out as quikly as possible.

[Chad Hughes]

Rod,

Sorry to hear of your troubles. That's really a shame.

Unfortunately you can't always rely on forum sponsorship to ensure that you are going to have a flawless transaction. Yes, it's better than going with some outfit that has no recognition, but problems still arise. Hopefully you'll break even in the end and save your rose reds.

Keep us posted!

Best wishes.

[terps]

To my knowledge, Fedex does not have a rate to box size.

FedEx charges freight based on arrival time, weight of box and volume of box(they also charge fees for rural addresses, home delivery, fuel surcharges, etc). The more the box weighs, the more it costs to send. If a box doesn't weigh much, but is very large in volume, it also costs more to send. Fedex charges by weight or volume of box depending on which costs more. When shipping anything with Fedex, you want to keep the box size as small as possible and as light as possible. You can easily calculate freight shipping charges on the Fedex website.

FedEx recently announced they will raise rates on average by 4.9% next year.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...9Ud6AD9CC45605

[roclement]

Thanks for the encouragement...

Bob is welcome to post his experiences here or elsewhere, up to him and I don't want to speak for him other than what he authorized me to do.

Please understand that Al (brewmaster) has been great during all of this, he tried real hard to mediate some of these exchanges between me and Fishking. I do not hold the forum or anyone responsible for any issues with this transaction.

I will not speak for anybody else since people out there are still hopeful that they will receive some sort of compensation for their dead fish. I was compensated for the fish they shipped me minus shiping expenses, that was for the poor shape the fish arrived, then I realized that it was not just poor shipping, it was also disease and it spread to my other fish. Those losses are the ones I am willing to take on my own without compensation so that I can post this here and make other people aware of my experience.

Again, these arte my experiences and Al can verify that my exchanges with Fhishking are real and I didn't make any of this up.

Rod

[William Palumbo]

I feel for you Rod. And like all lows in this hobby...this too shall pass. I am surprised the other party is not on here explaining or defending themselves, as you can be sure they are reading everything posted. I am just surprised at their silence. All the best with it Rod...Bill

[roclement]

Thank you...I survived a girlfriend killing all my fish and I witnessed many people loosing all their fish with DD Discus...just want to make people aware...I will post a shocking picture of my fish either today if I get home early enough from work or tomorrow...once one dies the gates are open...it is a very sad thig to see fish dying like that...

rod