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Thread: Even the liberals are getting mad now

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Even the liberals are getting mad now

    The only politicians I vote against are those that want to redistribute citizen's personal wealth. Liberty and freedom to me mean liberty and freedom from government control. I also believe the health care system is broken and government is much at fault. There is very little difference between democrats and republicans, they both want to grow the size of government. They buy votes by promising to take from others and then give to those who vote for them. Socialism punishes success and creates a socialist work ethic. Besides the majority of Americans are opposed to a government run heralth care system based on most polls

    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...uly_14_15_2009

    And there have been many other proposals by republicans but they have no chance of passing because the are a minority and the plans are not much better thatn thos of dems.

    http://www.gop.gov/solutions/healthcare

    http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/06...y5093897.shtml

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/op...-69270747.html

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124277551107536875.html
    Scott

  2. #32
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Even the liberals are getting mad now

    I'll switch gears here now...and turn things around...

    I don't think anyone out there is completely happy with any of the proposals... I know I am not...so let me ask anyone that cares to answer..

    1) Are you happy with your current health care? Is it obtained thru your employer or by some other source.

    2) How would you personally fix what you see is wrong with the current system in the USA?

    I don't think theres necessarily a right or wrong answer here. ...more of a perspective....I just thought it would make for a better discussion if people used their own words , experiences ,and observations rather than a political parties..

    Just a discussion please.


    -al
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  3. #33
    Registered Member GlennR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Even the liberals are getting mad now

    I guess it all comes down to your perceptions about the roles of government.

    Some folks say "less government is better", but we all use and enjoy many things which only a government can provide.

    Government builds the infrastructure & provide services which we all depend on. The roads, water & sewer, police & fire dept, postal service, airports, sea ports, education, weather service, state & national parks, wildlife management, environmental protection, food safety, animal control, courts & jails, etc, etc, etc.

    Maybe some of these things could be privatized, but most of them are things which are best handled by government. You might not trust the government is doing it's best, but would you rather entrust a private corporation which needs to show a profit? Often times doing the right thing is not profitable or cost effective in the "short term".

    But I think that is just the point. We tend to be overly concerned about the "short term", yet we expect & depend on our government to serve and protect us for the "long term".

    Btw, I'm surprised that there always seems to be more folks concerned about the problems with government than the extremely high pay of CEOs in comparison to workers today. Jobs are outsourced to "save costs" ....and the Board of Directors keeps giving more & more to CEOs. This sure seems unsustainable, regardless if it's pure Capitalism.

    Obama may not be perfect, but he won't be giving himself a $20 million bonus while he fires & lays off 50% of his employees.

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  5. #35
    Registered Member GlennR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Even the liberals are getting mad now



    That is Funny.

    Hitler and Rednecks don't like Obama...

    I guess when both Evil & Stupid are against you, you must be doing the right things.

  6. #36
    Registered Member mikel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Even the liberals are getting mad now

    I hate to say this, but I have a feeling that the republicans are only good at obstruction. Now that my state has elected a republican senator who cleverly to pass himself off as an "independent', the democrats will have to work that much harder to get things done. As far as I am concerned, those who are opposed to the health care reform proposal on the table most likely have very comfortable health coverage themselves, and they want the status quo, and dont care about anyone else. I have a great health care coverage through my employer, but I also know that many of my fellow Americans do not. Further, I am not so naive as to assume that lady luck will always smile on me...heaven forbid something bad happens to me and I am no longer covered. I would then hope that my peers will have the compassion to care about me and my family. It's easy to be an obstructionist when you are sitting pretty...let's just hope that you remain so fortunate. mike

  7. #37
    Registered Member John_Nicholson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Even the liberals are getting mad now

    Why do some people think that insurance is an entitlement? It is a service/product that is offered just like everything else. Where do we draw the line? Should I be entitled to everything I want? That seems to be the liberal thought. What happened to the thought that you get what you earn? I am 44 years old. I have been working pretty much since I was 10. I have been with my current company for the last 17 years. Guess what I have insurance. Why? Because I have earned it.

    Also what makes people thing the the uninsured are doing without medical services? My oldest daughter (who I pray will eventually grow up) has pretty much decided to be to lazy to work. Her husband works and goes to school, she stays home with their daughter. They do not have insurance. Have they ever had problems getting themselves or their daughter treatment? NO. Hospitals do not routinely turn away people that are sick. They might ship you to a county hospital, but you still get treated. Now some would say it is unfair that my son in law is working and going to school. That it is the fault of the insurance companies that they have to do without.....B.S. I like my son-in-law but he is where he is at because of decisions that he made. He is 29 and will not get out of school until the end of the year. Why? Because when he was younger he decided not to go to school and see the world as a truck driver. Ok I have no problems with that. So they decide to get married. Ok still no problems. After a year or so they decide to have a child...still no problems. Then he realizes that it is hard to be on the road while your child is growing up..Now there is a problem. He makes good money on the road, but then he misses everything...so he takes a fairly low paying job at a weilding shop so that he can get though school and be around his family. Is he in this position because of some evil insurance company? No. He is in this position because of decision that he made in his life. Now a couple of years from now they should be in a much better place then they are today and this to will be because of the better decisions that he is now making.

    The moral of the story? Most of us are in the positions that we are in because of decisions that we have made along the way. Both good and bad. Why can't people accept personal responsibility for their decisions?

    I hate to type so I am going to wind this down....I did want to add that my degree is in Agricultural Economics/Agri-Business with a management minor. The decisions being made by the current administration flys in the face of sound economic policy. I hope someone can slow down the destruction until we have a better administration (don't really care which party, just someone that is qualified) in place.

    -john

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Even the liberals are getting mad now

    I agree with everything you wrote John. I have had several times in my life when I was young and had no insurance. I broke my leg and went to a hospital and was treated. Yes I think something more could be done for those who have catastrophic illnesses and then go backrupt because of healthcare bills. Why dont we start by limiting malpractice lawsuits and lowering costs to doctors for their insurance. Maybe quit giving insurance companies the ability to avoid real competition by allowing people to purchase insurance across state boundaries. Allow small business owners to purchase insurce plans together like a large co. There are many ideas out there besides a government take over that is really designed to be another tax generator for govt. However, I am amazed that so many believe the government is the answer for all their problems and want housing, daycare, medical, transportation, secondary education, food, drugs, etc. etc. provided by the government. News flash: the government doesnt pay for these things , other citizens do. There is ample opportunity for almost anyone to be whatever they want in this country. I dont see how we can continue to punish those that work hard and create jobs for others; or how we expect to afford a growing public sector while at the same time shrinking the private sector through taxation. Makes no sense to me. JMO
    Scott

  9. #39
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Even the liberals are getting mad now

    Hey John,
    Some good points raised by your last post,. Choice does play a role ..sometimes.
    Why do some people think that insurance is an entitlement? It is a service/product that is offered just like everything else. Where do we draw the line? Should I be entitled to everything I want? That seems to be the liberal thought. What happened to the thought that you get what you earn? I am 44 years old. I have been working pretty much since I was 10. I have been with my current company for the last 17 years. Guess what I have insurance. Why? Because I have earned it.
    In most companies...health ins. is not "earned" though.. its a given for X amount of time employed...often as little as 6 months. to a year...regardless of how well you do a job.... and to me..this is where the problem begins.. We link Health ins with employment... ever since they did that decades ago as a perk to attract workers our system was doomed to fail... just from an economic point of view it places unfair burdens on businesses....and it makes competition in local markets and international markets harder....even when a company has a person kick in.

    question is what do you replace it with and how many Americans would give up the Health care "perks" they feel they are entitled to just by working for a company? Not many I think.... the current generation has grown up with that concept that health care is part of the job....I honestly think thats a major stumbling block in any reform.

    Tough call...

    -al

    ps.... juist for the heck of it...folks should get some health Ins facts ... this is a good starting point....
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_insurance
    Health insurance

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Jump to: navigation, search
    Health insurance like other forms of insurance is a form of collectivism by means of which people collectively pool their risk, in this case the risk of incurring medical expenses. It is sometimes used more broadly to include insurance covering disability or long-term nursing or custodial care needs. It may be provided through a government-sponsored social insurance program, or from private insurance companies. It may be purchased on a group basis (e.g., by a firm to cover its employees) or purchased by individual consumers. In each case, the covered groups or individuals pay premiums or taxes to help protect themselves from high or unexpected healthcare expenses. Similar benefits paying for medical expenses may also be provided through social welfare programs funded by the government.
    By estimating the overall risk of healthcare expenses, a routine finance structure (such as a monthly premium or annual tax) can be developed, ensuring that money is available to pay for the healthcare benefits specified in the insurance agreement. The benefit is administered by a central organization such as a government agency, private business, or not-for-profit entity.[1]
    Contents

    [hide]


    [edit] History and evolution

    Main article: History of insurance
    The concept of health insurance was proposed in 1694 by Hugh the Elder Chamberlen from the Peter Chamberlen family. In the late 19th century, "accident insurance" began to be available, which operated much like modern disability insurance.[2][3] This payment model continued until the start of the 20th century in some jurisdictions (like California), where all laws regulating health insurance actually referred to disability insurance.[4]
    Accident insurance was first offered in the United States by the Franklin Health Assurance Company of Massachusetts. This firm, founded in 1850, offered insurance against injuries arising from railroad and steamboat accidents. Sixty organizations were offering accident insurance in the U.S. by 1866, but the industry consolidated rapidly soon thereafter. While there were earlier experiments, the origins of sickness coverage in the U.S. effectively date from 1890. The first employer-sponsored group disability policy was issued in 1911.[5]
    Before the development of medical expense insurance, patients were expected to pay all other health care costs out of their own pockets, under what is known as the fee-for-service business model. During the middle to late 20th century, traditional disability insurance evolved into modern health insurance programs. Today, most comprehensive private health insurance programs cover the cost of routine, preventive, and emergency health care procedures, and most prescription drugs, but this was not always the case.
    Hospital and medical expense policies were introduced during the first half of the 20th century. During the 1920s, individual hospitals began offering services to individuals on a pre-paid basis, eventually leading to the development of Blue Cross organizations.[5] The predecessors of today's Health Maintenance Organizations (HMOs) originated beginning in 1929, through the 1930s and on during World War II.[6][7]
    [edit] How it works

    A health insurance policy is a contract between an insurance company and an individual or his sponsor (e.g. an employer). The contract can be renewable annually or monthly. The type and amount of health care costs that will be covered by the health insurance company are specified in advance, in the member contract or "Evidence of Coverage" booklet. The individual insured person's obligations may take several forms:[8]

    • Premium: The amount the policy-holder or his sponsor (e.g. an employer) pays to the health plan each month to purchase health coverage.
    • Deductible: The amount that the insured must pay out-of-pocket before the health insurer pays its share. For example, a policy-holder might have to pay a $500 deductible per year, before any of their health care is covered by the health insurer. It may take several doctor's visits or prescription refills before the insured person reaches the deductible and the insurance company starts to pay for care.
    • Co-payment: The amount that the insured person must pay out of pocket before the health insurer pays for a particular visit or service. For example, an insured person might pay a $45 co-payment for a doctor's visit, or to obtain a prescription. A co-payment must be paid each time a particular service is obtained.
    • Coinsurance: Instead of, or in addition to, paying a fixed amount up front (a co-payment), the co-insurance is a percentage of the total cost that insured person may also pay. For example, the member might have to pay 20% of the cost of a surgery over and above a co-payment, while the insurance company pays the other 80%. If there is an upper limit on coinsurance, the policy-holder could end up owing very little, or a great deal, depending on the actual costs of the services they obtain.
    • Exclusions: Not all services are covered. The insured person is generally expected to pay the full cost of non-covered services out of their own pocket.
    • Coverage limits: Some health insurance policies only pay for health care up to a certain dollar amount. The insured person may be expected to pay any charges in excess of the health plan's maximum payment for a specific service. In addition, some insurance company schemes have annual or lifetime coverage maximums. In these cases, the health plan will stop payment when they reach the benefit maximum, and the policy-holder must pay all remaining costs.
    • Out-of-pocket maximums: Similar to coverage limits, except that in this case, the insured person's payment obligation ends when they reach the out-of-pocket maximum, and the health company pays all further covered costs. Out-of-pocket maximums can be limited to a specific benefit category (such as prescription drugs) or can apply to all coverage provided during a specific benefit year.
    • Capitation: An amount paid by an insurer to a health care provider, for which the provider agrees to treat all members of the insurer.
    • In-Network Provider: (U.S. term) A health care provider on a list of providers preselected by the insurer. The insurer will offer discounted coinsurance or co-payments, or additional benefits, to a plan member to see an in-network provider. Generally, providers in network are providers who have a contract with the insurer to accept rates further discounted from the "usual and customary" charges the insurer pays to out-of-network providers.
    • Prior Authorization: A certification or authorization that an insurer provides prior to medical service occurring. Obtaining an authorization means that the insurer is obligated to pay for the service, assuming it matches what was authorized. Many smaller, routine services do not require authorization.[9]
    • Explanation of Benefits: A document sent by an insurer to a patient explaining what was covered for a medical service, and how they arrived at the payment amount and patient responsibility amount.[10]

    Prescription drug plans are a form of insurance offered through some employer benefit plans in the U.S., where the patient pays a copayment and the prescription drug insurance part or all of the balance for drugs covered in the formulary of the plan.
    Some, if not most, health care providers in the United States will agree to bill the insurance company if patients are willing to sign an agreement that they will be responsible for the amount that the insurance company doesn't pay. The insurance company pays out of network providers according to "reasonable and customary" charges, which may be less than the provider's usual fee. The provider may also have a separate contract with the insurer to accept what amounts to a discounted rate or capitation to the provider's standard charges. It generally costs the patient less to use an in-network provider.
    [edit] Health plan vs. health insurance

    Historically, HMOs tended to use the term "health plan", while commercial insurance companies used the term "health insurance". A health plan can also refer to a subscription-based medical care arrangement offered through HMOs, preferred provider organizations, or point of service plans. These plans are similar to pre-paid dental, pre-paid legal, and pre-paid vision plans. Pre-paid health plans typically pay for a fixed number of services (for instance, $300 in preventive care, a certain number of days of hospice care or care in a skilled nursing facility, a fixed number of home health visits, a fixed number of spinal manipulation charges, etc.) The services offered are usually at the discretion of a utilization review nurse who is often contracted through the managed care entity providing the subscription health plan. This determination may be made either prior to or after hospital admission (concurrent utilization review).
    [edit] Comprehensive vs. scheduled

    Comprehensive health insurance pays a percentage of the cost of hospital and physician charges after a deductible (usually applies to hospital charges) or a co-pay (usually applies to physician charges, but may apply to some hospital services) is met by the insured. These plans are generally expensive because of the high potential benefit payout — $1,000,000 to 5,000,000 is common — and because of the vast array of covered benefits.[11]
    Scheduled health insurance plans are not meant to replace a traditional comprehensive health insurance plans and are more of a basic policy providing access to day-to-day health care such as going to the doctor or getting a prescription drug. In recent years, these plans have taken the name mini-med plans or association plans. The term "association" is often used to describe them because they require membership in an association that must exist for some other purpose than to sell insurance. Examples include the National Association for the Self Employed and the Health Care Credit Union Association. These plans may provide benefits for hospitalization and surgical, but these benefits will be limited. Scheduled plans are not meant to be effective for catastrophic events. These plans cost much less than comprehensive health insurance. They generally pay limited benefits amounts directly to the service provider, and payments are based upon the plan's "schedule of benefits". Annual benefits maximums for a typical scheduled health insurance plan may range from $1,000 to $25,000.[12]
    [edit] Other factors affecting insurance prices

    A recent study by PriceWaterhouseCoopers examining the drivers of rising health care costs in the U.S. pointed to increased utilization created by increased consumer demand, new treatments, and more intensive diagnostic testing, as the most significant driver.[13] People in developed countries are living longer. The population of those countries is aging, and a larger group of senior citizens requires more intensive medical care than a young healthier population. Advances in medicine and medical technology can also increase the cost of medical treatment. Lifestyle-related factors can increase utilization and therefore insurance prices, such as: increases in obesity caused by insufficient exercise and unhealthy food choices; excessive alcohol use, smoking, and use of street drugs. Other factors noted by the PWC study included the movement to broader-access plans, higher-priced technologies, and cost-shifting from Medicaid and the uninsured to private payers.[13]
    [edit] Comparison

    See also: Health care systems
    The Commonwealth Fund, in its annual survey, "Mirror, Mirror on the Wall", compares the performance of the health care systems in Australia, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, Germany, Canada and the U.S. Its 2007 study found that, although the U.S. system is the most expensive, it consistently under-performs compared to the other countries.[14] One difference between the U.S. and the other countries in the study is that the U.S. is the only country without universal health insurance coverage.
    [edit] Australia

    Main article: Health care in Australia
    The public health system is called Medicare. It ensures free universal access to hospital treatment and subsidised out-of-hospital medical treatment. It is funded by a 1.5% tax levy on all taxpayers, an extra 1% levy on high income earners, as well as general revenue.
    The private health system is funded by a number of private health insurance organisations. The largest of these is Medibank Private, which is government-owned, but operates as a government business enterprise under the same regulatory regime as all other registered private health funds. The Coalition Howard government had announced that Medibank would be privatised if it won the 2007 election, however they were defeated by the Australian Labor Party under Kevin Rudd which had already pledged that it would remain in government ownership.
    Some private health insurers are 'for profit' enterprises, and some are non-profit organizations such as HCF Health Insurance and GMHBA Health Insurance. Some have membership restricted to particular groups, but the majority have open membership. Membership to most health funds is now also available through comparison websites like moneytime, iSelect or the decision assistance site HelpMeChoose. These comparison sites operate on a commission-basis by agreement with their participating health funds.
    Most aspects of private health insurance in Australia are regulated by the Private Health Insurance Act 2007.
    The private health system in Australia operates on a "community rating" basis, whereby premiums do not vary solely because of a person's previous medical history, current state of health, or (generally speaking) their age (but see Lifetime Health Cover below). Balancing this are waiting periods, in particular for pre-existing conditions (usually referred to within the industry as PEA, which stands for "pre-existing ailment"). Funds are entitled to impose a waiting period of up to 12 months on benefits for any medical condition the signs and symptoms of which existed during the six months ending on the day the person first took out insurance. They are also entitled to impose a 12-month waiting period for benefits for treatment relating to an obstetric condition, and a 2-month waiting period for all other benefits when a person first takes out private insurance. Funds have the discretion to reduce or remove such waiting periods in individual cases. They are also free not to impose them to begin with, but this would place such a fund at risk of "adverse selection", attracting a disproportionate number of members from other funds, or from the pool of intending members who might otherwise have joined other funds. It would also attract people with existing medical conditions, who might not otherwise have taken out insurance at all because of the denial of benefits for 12 months due to the PEA Rule. The benefits paid out for these conditions would create pressure on premiums for all the fund's members, causing some to drop their membership, which would lead to further rises, and a vicious cycle would ensue.
    There are a number of other matters about which funds are not permitted to discriminate between members in terms of premiums, benefits or membership - these include racial origin, religion, sex, sexual orientation, nature of employment, and leisure activities. Premiums for a fund's product that is sold in more than one state can vary from state to state, but not within the same state.
    The Australian government has introduced a number of incentives to encourage adults to take out private hospital insurance. These include:

    • Lifetime Health Cover: If a person has not taken out private hospital cover by the 1st July after their 31st birthday, then when (and if) they do so after this time, their premiums must include a loading of 2% per annum for each year they were without hospital cover. Thus, a person taking out private cover for the first time at age 40 will pay a 20 per cent loading. The loading is removed after 10 years of continuous hospital cover. The loading applies only to premiums for hospital cover, not to ancillary (extras) cover.


    • Medicare Levy Surcharge: People whose taxable income is greater than a specified amount (currently $70,000 for singles and $140,000 for couples) and who do not have an adequate level of private hospital cover must pay a 1% surcharge on top of the standard 1.5% Medicare Levy. The rationale is that if the people in this income group are forced to pay more money one way or another, most would choose to purchase hospital insurance with it, with the possibility of a benefit in the event that they need private hospital treatment - rather than pay it in the form of extra tax as well as having to meet their own private hospital costs.
      • The Australian government announced in May 2008 that it proposes to increase the thresholds, to $100,000 for singles and $150,000 for families. These changes require legislative approval. A bill to change the law has been introduced but was not passed by the Senate.[15][16] An amended version was passed on 16 October 2008. There have been criticisms that the changes will cause many people to drop their private health insurance, causing a further burden on the public hospital system, and a rise in premiums for those who stay with the private system. Other commentators believe the effect will be minimal.[17]



    • Private Health Insurance Rebate: The government subsidises the premiums for all private health insurance cover, including hospital and ancillary (extras), by 30%, 35% or 40%, depending on age. The Rudd Government announced in May 2009 that as of July 2010, the Rebate would become means-tested, and offered on a sliding scale.

    [edit] Canada

    Main article: Health care in Canada
    Most health insurance in Canada is administered by each province, under the Canada Health Act, which requires all people to have free access to health care. Collectively, the public provincial health insurance systems in Canada are frequently referred to as Medicare. Private health insurance is allowed, but the provincial governments allow it only for services that the public health plans do not cover; for example, semi-private or private rooms in hospitals and prescription drug plans. Canadians are free to use private insurance for elective medical services such as laser vision correction surgery, cosmetic surgery, and other non-basic medical procedures. Some 65% of Canadians have some form of supplementary private health insurance; many of them receive it through their employers.[18] Private-sector services not paid for by the government account for nearly 30 percent of total health care spending.[19]
    In 2005, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled, in Chaoulli v. Quebec, that the province's prohibition on private insurance for health care already insured by the provincial plan could constitute an infringement of the right to life and security if there were long wait times for treatment as happened in this case. Certain other provinces have legislation which financially discourages but does not forbid private health insurance in areas covered by the public plans. The ruling has not changed the overall pattern of health insurance across Canada but has spurred on attempts to tackle the core issues of supply and demand and the impact of wait times.[20]
    [edit] France

    Main article: Health care in France
    The national system of health insurance was instituted in 1945, just after the end of the Second World War. It was a compromise between Gaullist and Communist representatives in the French parliament. The Conservative Gaullists were opposed to a state-run healthcare system, while the Communists were supportive of a complete nationalisation of health care along a British Beveridge model.
    The resulting programme is profession-based: all people working are required to pay a portion of their income to a health insurance fund, which mutualises the risk of illness, and which reimburses medical expenses at varying rates. Children and spouses of insured people are eligible for benefits, as well. Each fund is free to manage its own budget, and used to reimburse medical expenses at the rate it saw fit, however following a number of reforms in recent years, the majority of funds provide the same level of reimbursment and benefits.
    The government has two responsibilities in this system.

    • The first government responsibility is the fixing of the rate at which medical expenses should be negotiated, and it does this in two ways: The Ministry of Health directly negotiates prices of medicine with the manufacturers, based on the average price of sale observed in neighboring countries. A board of doctors and experts decides if the medicine provides a valuable enough medical benefit to be reimbursed (note that most medicine is reimbursed, including homeopathy). In parallel, the government fixes the reimbursment rate for medical services: this means that a doctor is free to charge the fee that he wishes for a consultation or an examination, but the social security system will only reimburse it at a pre-set rate. These tariffs are set annually through negotiation with doctors' representative organisations.
    • The second government responsibility is oversight of the health-insurance funds, to ensure that they are correctly managing the sums they receive, and to ensure oversight of the public hospital network.

    Today, this system is more-or-less intact. All citizens and legal foreign residents of France are covered by one of these mandatory programs, which continue to be funded by worker participation. However, since 1945, a number of major changes have been introduced. Firstly, the different health-care funds (there are five: General, Independent, Agricultural, Student, Public Servants) now all reimburse at the same rate. Secondly, since 2000, the government now provides health care to those who are not covered by a mandatory regime (those who have never worked and who are not students, meaning the very rich or the very poor). This regime, unlike the worker-financed ones, is financed via general taxation and reimburses at a higher rate than the profession-based system for those who cannot afford to make up the difference. Finally, to counter the rise in health-care costs, the government has installed two plans, (in 2004 and 2006), which require insured people to declare a referring doctor in order to be fully reimbursed for specalist visits, and which installed a mandatory co-pay of 1 € (about $1.45) for a doctor visit, 0,50 € (about 80 ¢) for each box of medicine prescribed, and a fee of 16-18 € (20-25 $) per day for hospital stays and for expensive procedures.
    An important element of the French insurance system is solidarity: the more ill a person becomes, the less the person pays. This means that for people with serious or chronic illnesses, the insurance system reimburses them 100 % of expenses, and waives their co-pay charges.
    Finally, for fees that the mandatory system does not cover, there is a large range of private complementary insurance plans available. The market for these programs is very competitive, and often subsidised by the employer, which means that premiums are usually modest. 85% of French people benefit from complementary private health insurance.[21][22]
    [edit] Netherlands

    Main article: Health care in the Netherlands
    In 2006, a new system of health insurance came into force in the Netherlands. This new system avoids the two pitfalls of adverse selection and moral hazard associated with traditional forms of health insurance by using a combination of regulation and an insurance equalization pool. Moral hazard is avoided by mandating that insurance companies provide at least one policy which meets a government set minimum standard level of coverage, and all adult residents are obliged by law to purchase this coverage from an insurance company of their choice. All insurance companies receive funds from the equalization pool to help cover the cost of this government-mandated coverage. This pool is run by a regulator which collects salary-based contributions from employers, which make up about 50% of all health care funding, and funding from the government to cover people who cannot afford health care, which makes up an additional 5%.
    The remaining 45% of health care funding comes from insurance premiums paid by the public, for which companies compete on price, though the variation between the various competing insurers is only about 5%. However, insurance companies are free to sell additional policies to provide coverage beyond the national minimum. These policies do not receive funding from the equalization pool, but cover additional treatments, such as dental procedures and physiotherapy, which are not paid for by the mandatory policy.
    Funding from the equalization pool is distributed to insurance companies for each person they insure under the required policy. However, high-risk individuals get more from the pool, and low-income persons and children under 18 have their insurance paid for entirely. Because of this, insurance companies no longer find insuring high risk individuals an unappealing proposition, avoiding the potential problem of adverse selection.
    Insurance companies are not allowed to have co-payments, caps, or deductibles, or to deny coverage to any person applying for a policy, or to charge anything other than their nationally set and published standard premiums. Therefore, every person buying insurance will pay the same price as everyone else buying the same policy, and every person will get at least the minimum level of coverage.
    [edit] United Kingdom

    Main article: National Health Service
    The UK's National Health Service (NHS) is a publicly funded healthcare system that provides coverage to everyone normally resident in the UK. It is not strictly an insurance system because (a) there are no premiums collected, (b) costs are not charged at the patient level and (c) costs are not pre-paid from a pool. However, it does achieve the main aim of insurance which is to spread financial risk arising from ill-health. The costs of running the NHS (est. £104 billion in 2007-8)[23] are met directly from general taxation. The NHS provides the majority of health care in the UK, including primary care, in-patient care, long-term health care, ophthalmology and dentistry.
    Private health care has continued parallel to the NHS, paid for largely by private insurance, but it is used by less than 8% of the population, and generally as a top-up to NHS services. There are many treatments that the private sector does not provide. For example, health insurance on pregnancy is generally not covered or covered with restricting clauses.[24] Typical exclusions for Bupa schemes (and many other insurers) include:
    ageing, menopause and puberty; AIDS/HIV; allergies or allergic disorders; birth control, conception, sexual problems and sex changes; chronic conditions; complications from excluded or restricted conditions/ treatment; convalescence, rehabilitation and general nursing care ; cosmetic, reconstructive or weight loss treatment; deafness; dental/oral treatment (such as fillings, gum disease, jaw shrinkage, etc); dialysis; drugs and dressings for out-patient or take-home use† ; experimental drugs and treatment; eyesight; HRT and bone densitometry; learning difficulties, behavioural and developmental problems; overseas treatment and repatriation; physical aids and devices; pre-existing or special conditions; pregnancy and childbirth; screening and preventive treatment; sleep problems and disorders; speech disorders; temporary relief of symptoms.[25] († = except in exceptional circumstances)
    There are a number of other companies in the United Kingdom which include, among others, AXA[26], Aviva, Groupama Healthcare and Pru Health. Similar exclusions apply, depending on the policy which is purchased.
    Recently the private sector has been used to increase NHS capacity despite a large proportion of the British public opposing such involvement.[27] According to the World Health Organization, government funding covered 86% of overall health care expenditures in the UK as of 2004, with private expenditures covering the remaining 14%.[28]
    [edit] United States

    Main articles: Health insurance in the United States, Health insurance reform, and Health care in the United States
    In 2004, U.S. health insurers directly employed almost 470,000 people at an average salary of $61,409.[29] (As of the fourth quarter of 2007, the total U.S. labor force stood at 153.6 million, of whom 146.3 million were employed. Employment related to all forms of insurance totaled 2.3 million.[30] Mean annual earnings for full-time civilian workers as of June 2006 were $41,231; median earnings were $33,634.)[31]
    The United States health care system relies heavily on private health insurance, which is the primary source of coverage for most Americans. According to the CDC, approximately 58% of Americans have private health insurance. Public programs provide the primary source of coverage for most seniors citizens and for low-income children and families who meet certain eligibility requirements. The primary public programs are Medicare, a federal social insurance program for seniors and certain disabled individuals, Medicaid, funded jointly by the federal government and states but administered at the state level, which covers certain very low income children and their families, and SCHIP, also a federal-state partnership that serves certain children and families who do not qualify for Medicaid but who cannot afford private coverage. Other public programs include military health benefits provided through TRICARE and the Veterans Health Administration and benefits provided through the Indian Health Service. Some states have additional programs for low-income individuals.[32]
    A recent study found that 62 percent of all bankruptcies filed in 2007 were linked to medical expenses. Of those who filed for bankruptcy, nearly 80 percent had health insurance.[33] In just three years, the Medicare and Medicaid programs will account for 50 percent of all national health spending.[34] This has fueled an outcry for an overhaul of the health care system in the United States. The House of Representatives passed a health care reform bill by a vote of 220-215 on November 7, 2009. [35] Currently the fate of the bill rests on the Senate. The legislation once included changes that would give the government the power to negotiate policy premiums and to provide a public option, but in an effort to acquire the necessary votes to prevent a Republican filibuster the public option was eliminated from the bill. This would have given citizens the option to buy into public programs like Medicare for which current members pay only $96.40 monthly.[36] Instead the bill now requires that all American's purchase private health insurance or be subject to fines. [37][38] The insurance industry represents a significant lobbying group in the United States. The major health interests have spent an average of $1.4 million per day to lobby Congress so far this year and are on track to spend more than half a billion dollars by the end 2009. [39] This data may be indicative of why the current bill no longer offers a public option.
    [edit] California

    In 2007, 87% of Californians had some form of health insurance.[40] Services in California range from private offerings: HMOs, PPOs to public programs: Medi-Cal, Medicare, and Healthy Families (SCHIP).
    At times, it is difficult to navigate the complex health insurance system. California developed a solution to assist people across the State and is one of the only States to have an Office devoted to giving people tips and resources to get the best care possible. California's Office of the Patient Advocate was established July 2000 to publish a yearly Health Care Quality Report Card on the Top HMOs, PPOs, and Medical Groups and to create and distribute helpful tips and resources to give Californians the tools needed to get the best care.[41]
    Additionally, California has a Help Center that assists Californians when they have problems with their health insurance. The Help Center is run by the Department of Managed Health Care, the government department that oversees and regulates HMOs and some PPOs. The number to call is 1.888.466.2219, they have staff on hand to help you through the process of filing a complaint, or just figuring out what to do next.
    [edit] See also




    [edit] Notes and references


    1. ^ How Private Insurance Works: A Primer by Gary Claxton, Institution for Health Care Research and Policy, Georgetown University, on behalf of the Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation.
    2. ^ Howstuffworks: How Health Insurance Works.
    3. ^ "Encarta: Health Insurance". Archived from the original on 2009-10-31. http://www.webcitation.org/5kwqZV6V7.
    4. ^ See California Insurance Code Section 106 (defining disability insurance). http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacode...100-124.5.html In 2001, the California Legislature added subdivision (b), which defines "health insurance" as "an individual or group disability insurance policy that provides coverage for hospital, medical, or surgical benefits."
    5. ^ a b Fundamentals of Health Insurance: Part A, Health Insurance Association of America, 1997, ISBN 1-879143-36-4.
    6. ^ Thomas P. O'Hare, "Individual Medical Expense Insurance," The American College, 2000, p. 7, ISBN 1-57996-025-1.
    7. ^ Managed Care: Integrating the Delivery and Financing of Health Care - Part A, Health Insurance Association of America, 1995, p. 9 ISBN 1-879143-26-1.
    8. ^ Agency for Health care Research and Quality (AHRQ). "Questions and Answers About Health Insurance: A Consumer Guide." August 2007.
    9. ^ http://www.healthharbor.com/HealthInsPriorAuth.html
    10. ^ http://www.healthharbor.com/HealthInsReadingEOB.html
    11. ^ "Comprehensive Health Insurance vs. Scheduled Health Insurance".
    12. ^ "Mini Medical Plans On The Move".
    13. ^ a b The Factors Fueling Rising Healthcare Costs 2006, PriceWaterhouseCoopers for America's Health Insurance Plans, 2006, accessed 2007-10-08.
    14. ^ "Mirror, Mirror on the Wall: An International Update on the Comparative Performance of American Health Care". The Commonwealth Fund. May 15, 2007. http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Cont...can-Healt.aspx. Retrieved March 7, 2009.
    15. ^ http://www.australianunity.com.au/au...Surcharge.asp#
    16. ^ http://parlinfoweb.aph.gov.au/piweb/...d/27050802.pdf
    17. ^ http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...12/2332647.htm
    18. ^ Private Health Insurance in OECD Countries. OECD Health Project. 2004. http://books.google.com/books?id=oUM...ance+in+canada. Retrieved 2007-11-19.
    19. ^ National Health Expenditure Trends, 1975-2007. Canadian Institute for Health Information. 2007-11-13. ISBN 9781554651672. http://secure.cihi.ca/cihiweb/dispPa...cw_rel=AR_31_E. Retrieved 2007-11-19.
    20. ^ Hadorn, D. (2005-08-02). "The Chaoulli challenge: getting a grip on waiting lists". Canadian Medical Association Journal 173: 271. doi:10.1503/cmaj.050812. PMID 16076823. http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/173/3/271?etoc.
    21. ^ "L'assurance maladie".
    22. ^ John S. Ambler, "The French Welfare State: surving social and ideological change," New York University Press, 30 September 1993, ISBN 978-0814706268.
    23. ^ HM Treasury (2007-03-21). "Budget 2007" (PDF). p. 21. http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/media/...eport_1757.pdf. Retrieved 2007-05-11.
    24. ^ http://www.carehealth.co.uk/pmiexpln.htm
    25. ^ BUPA exclusions.
    26. ^ AXA PPP healthcare.
    27. ^ "Survey of the general public's views on NHS system reform in England" (PDF). BMA. 2007-06-01. http://www.bma.org.uk/ap.nsf/Attachm...ynhsreform.pdf.
    28. ^ World Health Organization Statistical Information System: Core Health Indicators.
    29. ^ "Health Insurance: Overview and Economic Impact in the States," America’s Health Insurance Plans, November 2007.
    30. ^ U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, "THE EMPLOYMENT SITUATION: JANUARY 2008," February 1, 2008.
    31. ^ U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, "National Compensation Survey: Occupational Wages in the United States, June 2006," June 2007.
    32. ^ U.S. Census Bureau, "CPS Health Insurance Definitions".
    33. ^ Himmelstein, D, E., et al, “Medical Bankruptcy in the United States, 2007: Results of a National Study, American Journal of Medicine, May 2009.
    34. ^ Siska, A, et al, Health Spending Projections Through 2018: Recession Effects Add Uncertainty to The Outlook Health Affairs, March/April 2009; 28(2): w346-w357.
    35. ^ http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/11/...are/index.html
    36. ^ http://questions.medicare.gov/cgi-bi...p?p_faqid=2100
    37. ^ http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul
    38. ^ http://questions.medicare.gov/cgi-bi...p?p_faqid=2100
    39. ^ http://www.healthreformwatch.com/200...f-being-there/
    40. ^ CHIS 2007 Survey
    41. ^ OPA, About California's Patient Advocate



    • Navigating your health benefits for dummies. Charles M Cutler MD Tracey A Baker CFP (c)2006 ISBN 978-0-470-08354-3

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    Last edited by brewmaster15; 01-20-2010 at 11:57 PM.
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  10. #40

    Default Re: Even the liberals are getting mad now

    Quote Originally Posted by John_Nicholson View Post
    Hospitals do not routinely turn away people that are sick. They might ship you to a county hospital, but you still get treated.
    Hospitals by law are obliged to treat emergency room patients. You neglected to mention what this already costs each American tax payer or how you personally as well as the rest of us both with and without insurance would actually be financially better off if everyone was covered in the first place.
    ER visits are 3-4 times the cost of regular preventative visits . As more people become uninsured more ER visits happen, costing the tax payer more each time. Essentially anyone who is not super rich is acting very much against economic self interest, while the health insurance moguls get obscenely rich on the back of all of our illnesses and frailties.

    Someone said earlier ' there's no free ride'.
    That may be so , but we all have to make the trip, and when we leave fellow human beings to die ( literally) or go bankrupt through no fault of their own then surely we lose something of what it is that is supposed to make us good as Americans.

    'we shall be judged by how we treat the least among us'...who said that? must have been a socialist eh?

    Would anyone also suggest scrapping unemployment benefits or social security? aren't they Socialistic? Those are gov programs that save literally millions of Americans from starving to death, and without which this recession/depression would have been every bit as bad as the 'Great Depression' ( which actually spawned social security)
    Last edited by wildthing; 01-21-2010 at 12:26 AM.

  11. #41
    Registered Member John_Nicholson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Even the liberals are getting mad now

    DW I am not saying that the current system is perfect, but I think it is better then increasing the governments input. The current cost to the average working American is probably on the high side but the reform that the idiots in DC are pushing would make the current cost look like chicken scratch. A look at history pretty much proves to anyone that wants to research it that more government control is very seldom a good thing.

    Al you and I have gotten boring. Remember the "good old days" when we fought over stuff all of the time?....LOL.

    -john

    P.S. The comment about my oldest being lazy has nothing to do with her being a housewife. It has to do with her being lazy. I did not want that to be taken the wrong way. Some of the hardest working people I know are house wives or househusbands.

  12. #42
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Even the liberals are getting mad now

    Al you and I have gotten boring. Remember the "good old days" when we fought over stuff all of the time?....LOL.

    -john
    yep.. I think we got older too...not sure how that happened!. Guess I finally got it thru my thick skull after all these years that I don't need to agree with someone to get along with them... a good strong discussion is still fun though.

    -al
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  13. #43
    Registered Member Darrell Ward's Avatar
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    Default Re: Even the liberals are getting mad now

    There is no reason why in a modern society, people should not be provided with basic health care. The argument that somehow this is socialism, communism, or any other "ism" is BS, and just another scare tactic. If you really want the private sector to run everything in society, then shut down city hall, suspend garbage pickup, mass transit, the post office, the VA, do away with social security, medicare, the military, close down everything the government now runs. After all, these things must be socialism as well, right? And we all know the government can't run anything, right? Let the the private sector run everything with no regulation and see how long we last with for profit corporations running everything. Can you see how ridiculous this argument about "socialism" is, or are you really that naive that you believe all that propaganda crap?
    Last edited by Darrell Ward; 01-21-2010 at 10:48 AM.
    Darrell

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Even the liberals are getting mad now

    I think they oughtta pass amendmant 28 thats says any laws passed in the house senate or congress they must live by also.....That might make them think a little about the grabage they try to push down our throats every day

  15. #45

    Default Re: Even the liberals are getting mad now

    Quote Originally Posted by mikel View Post
    I hate to say this, but I have a feeling that the republicans are only good at obstruction.
    "A recent study by Congressional Quarterly, for example, concluded that Obama enjoyed unprecedented success with Congress in 2009 – winning almost 97 percent of the votes in which he took a position, better than Lyndon Johnson or Ronald Reagan."

    Obama had a full year to do anything that he wanted. The Republicans could not obstruct anything.


    Another liberal is mad as hell. ""Exclusive: Kucinich shreds Democrats for betraying the promise of change"

    http://rawstory.com/2010/01/exclusiv...eds-democrats/

    You have to admit, Obama did a lot of lying during his campaign. Who'd have thunk that a radical, left wing socialist would lie to get elected?


    "Why Doctors Are Abandoning Medicare"

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/...serting-obama/

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