Heckel Water conditions

[Discus Origins]

Hi All,

New to the forum, long time discus keeper, enjoying reading a lot of the threads on here.

I've always kept domestically bred discus that actually do well in tap water where I never had to do too much to make them happy. But now I'm getting into some wild discus, have some heckels on order, that I want to make sure the conditions are as close as possible to nature.

My tap here in FL comes out about ph 7.8, GH and KH over 16 so definite changes have to be made. I have a R/O unit producing water right now at ph 7.0, Gh and Kh around 2. I have set up a 90 gallon with wet/dry, sand substrate and driftwood. It was planted heavily but since changing the water in there from 50/50 tap/RO to 100% RO a lot of the plants have started to die and shedding leaves so I'm just going to remove them all except for a few anubias and maybe java moss.

My question is this....we all know that the Heckels would love to be in ph 4.0-4.5 and in water with Kh < 2, conductivity less than 20 microseimens, how in the world can I make sure the ph stays stable in that environment? That will be the biggest challenge for me to maintain in the tank. I was thinking about using a combination of neutral and acid buffers to take the water to the right ph but then I've also read not to use buffers as its not good for the fish. Any help would be appreciated - Heiko Bleher, Brewmaster, Apistomaster, etc please jump right in. Thanks.

[Discus Origins]

I guess this either isn't a hot topic or no one has an answer for me yet...many views but no replies

[plecocicho]

Hi, m3...,
low pH has his pros and cons. On a plus side, as far as heckels go, they will shine in those low pH conditions. They came from extremelly soft and acid waters (average 4pH), full of tanins, whiich all prevents growth of bacteria, unfortunally also for most nitryfing bacteria. Tanins have several positive atributes, one is that they prevent bacteria growth, make staple acid enviroment (once Ph fall down to 4, little change in Ph occours), second is taht they help to accumulate low concentrations of minerals in natural waters. Heckels receive some minerals from their diet, be it fruits or shrimps.
So where am i heading with all this?
Some felow finnish heckel keepers keep them in very acid envroment, with soft water. They compensate lack of mienrals in the water with mioneral rich food (veggies,fruits, adding calcium, etc). They change water but not that extremelly as some americans do. Peat is great to sustain stable acid enviroment, despite low KH. Nitrifying process at low pH is very slow of course, but remember, all amoniumm is practically harmless for the fish as it is in the ion form,so there cant be any burns, or gill poisoning.

[brewmaster15]

My question is this....we all know that the Heckels would love to be in ph 4.0-4.5 and in water with Kh < 2, conductivity less than 20 microseimens, how in the world can I make sure the ph stays stable in that environment? That will be the biggest challenge for me to maintain in the tank. I was thinking about using a combination of neutral and acid buffers to take the water to the right ph but then I've also read not to use buffers as its not good for the fish. Any help would be appreciated - Heiko Bleher, Brewmaster, Apistomaster, etc please jump right in. Thanks.

Hi,
In their native habitat theres an immense volume of water and pH can stay low but relatively stable...Its very very hard to maintain a pH of 4-4.5 in small volume of water...The tendency is to drift down and even heckels will get stressed by too low a pH.

If you were to try to to mimic these waters you'll need to carefully monitor your tanks water and may have to resort to large and frequent water changes with prepared RO or DI water.. I would not use commercial buffers as these are really geared to maintain a tank in the more normal range of pH .

If your goal to breed them...then you may need to do the above...If your goal is to maintain them well..pH ranges of 5.5-6.5 should be more than adequate...I have a group here that I keep in tap water in the lows 7's and I have kept others in waters that have gone below pH 4...
Personally I wish I could duplicate the Amazon here...but I can't...so I don't even try.

Just my opinion,
HTH,
al

[Discus Origins]

Thank you guys for your suggestions. It looks like I may have to experiment with peat moss and tanins. I have experimented in a 20 gallon container with 75% r/o and 25% tap and used a combination of neutral buffer and acid buffer to take the ph down to 5.0 and have monitored it for the past 3 days with a digital ph probe and it has consistently stayed at ph of 5 without too much fluctuation. I guess going below 5 is where the peat moss comes in so I will experiment with that next on stability. I would assume this is also the same battle many of the experienced disc breeders have already fought. Any stories from past trials?

[yogi]

There will be a lot of trial and error in trying to do what you want to do. Because the 20 gallons stays stable at ph 5.0 you won't be able to maintain it stable in a tank with fish. The natural cycle of a fishtank will tend to drift it lower. You will probably need a small bag with crushed coral (the kind they use in a saltwater tank) in the filter. This to will be trail and error. I would say just 1 or 2 table spoons in the bag. The best bag for this is buy a cheap pair of ladies stockings at the supermarket and cut them to use. It will take time to find the right amount of coral to use and you will probably need to change it once per month. Also rinse it before you use it. It's been over 5 years since I kept tanks similar to what your trying to do so I'll add more after I have time to think about what I use to do. Good Luck

[Blues]

Hi.
I´m also new here (Been peeking for a while).
Excuse my linguistic skills, but could anyone tell me what "tanins" are?
I simply can´t find any translation but an acid for preparing furs.

Thanks

[Eddie]

Hi.
I´m also new here (Been peeking for a while).
Excuse my linguistic skills, but could anyone tell me what "tanins" are?
I simply can´t find any translation but an acid for preparing furs.

Thanks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannin

[Blues]

Thanks
Seems as the translation was right - just specified a single use of the acid.

[Jstuver]

Don't want to steal your thread but I have a question for the people who keep heckels or have kept them.
I just got a group of large adult heckels from a fellow hobbiest. He kept them in RO water and I don't normally use RO so I don't have a system. He had me use a ph minus (sulfuric acid) to bring my ph down to add them to my established tank. I moved my domestics to a different tank so they are now in a very established tank.
I worry that when I change their water I might have a problem as my ph runs about 7.8 or so. Also I live in Utah and we have very hard water! What will I need to do for them? Do I need to take their aquarium to all RO water? The local pet store gives it free but it sure will be a pain. I have read it's not so much the ph as it is the hardness of the water. Could I add peat moss in my overflow to soften my water?

[plecocicho]

People do keep hybrids in basic hard water that you have. But wilds, especially heckels DO better in more soft and acid water. Not necesserialy pure Ro and 4 ph, but 3dgh and kh with 6 ph will be sufficent. Adding tannins via peat moss or oak/katappo leaves would be nice also. If your water is hard, you cant lower your ph and hardness just with peat ist just to weak. You could lower it by mixing ro or by using anion and cation resins, which will remove all minerals from your tap water. Only downside is the reactivation with 3-5% Hcl and Naoh, kation and anion resin, respectively.

[PamC]

I have been planning to keep discus and the more I look around at the varieties, I seem to gravitate towards the smaller but beautiful wild Heckles.

I am asking for clarification on Heckle water conditions, specifically on raising young Heckles.
I use RODI water and reconstitute with Seachem's Equilibrium, Acid and Alkaline buffers, presently for a target of GH-KH 3-4, plus trace minerals. pH is 7.

Is the the GH-KH target of 3-4 degrees a target for optimum growth in 3-4 inch young heckles?
Or is there a different target for young heckles compared to the adults that are healthily maintained at GH/KH target of 3-4 degrees?

Thanks in advance.

[Discus Origins]

From speaking with many members of this forum and also some old school discus hobbyists, raising young wild discus or domestic ones for that matter is much easier than trying to breed.

For breeding of wild discus, optimally if you can replicate the conditions of their natural habitat that would be the best. But more important than pH is the softness or TDS of the water. It should be below 80ppm if possible.

For raising wild discus, pH and hardness can be thrown out the window and concentrating on growing the fish to correct size without stunting is most important. There is really no wrong way to raise the fish, many breeders and experienced hobbyists use aged tap water as that is the cheapest and easiest way. Multiple feedings and water changes will keep the young fish growing and healthy. When they get to breeding age, Heckels usually after 1 1/2 to 2 years of age, then focusing on water conditions become more important.

I have personally noticed that Heckels do show better coloration with lower ph and softer water.

[PamC]

I see I have some more reading to do, heckles are not the smaller of the wilds, LOL, but very beautiful. I will see about picking up a book focused on the wild varieties.

Presently not looking to breed wilds, may grow out a few and then set up the breeding conditions to see if I have a pair to keep, then offer the grown heckles to others locally.

So if I understand the thread, it is more diet and water changes that I would need to focus on. I can still continue reconstituting my RODI water to the mentioned targets and the jvies/sub adults should be fine for growth.

[erikc]

I have been planning to keep discus and the more I look around at the varieties, I seem to gravitate towards the smaller but beautiful wild Heckles.

I am asking for clarification on Heckle water conditions, specifically on raising young Heckles.
I use RODI water and reconstitute with Seachem's Equilibrium, Acid and Alkaline buffers, presently for a target of GH-KH 3-4, plus trace minerals. pH is 7.

Is the the GH-KH target of 3-4 degrees a target for optimum growth in 3-4 inch young heckles?
Or is there a different target for young heckles compared to the adults that are healthily maintained at GH/KH target of 3-4 degrees?

Thanks in advance.

Sorry, should have put in a word before.

1) Heckels are not small, believe it or not they just keep on growing all through their life in the right conditions. I have some Abacaxis and Nhamunda Heckels and they just keep on growing, they just never stop !!

2) Optimum growth for juvenile Heckels will need and good balance between soft water and minerals (pH below neutral 6 - 6.5). I use RO water that I remineralise with special Discus salts ( I think Seachem does them in the States). Water changes are important here and the quality of the water is essential, RO I find is the optimum choice (you don't have to demineralise it). I wouldn't worry about the conductivity or hardness since the Discus salts make the readings completely meaningless.

3) A balanced and varied diet, they are onmivores but have a prefernce for vegettable matter. I have found that spirulina flakes or pellets are a favourite. I use commercialy available prepared foods since I only have a few tanks (stick to the upper quality brands).

4) Don't expect them to grow as fast as the Hybrids. They take time and patience !!

5) For pairing you will obviously need a group. I've never managed to find a 100% sure way for sexing Hecekls, so it's always better to late nature take it's course. They will behave in the usual discus manner by isolating themselves from the group and picking an apprpriate spawning site. After that well ...