Heckel Water conditions

[Apistomaster]

JStuver,
By any chance did you get your Heckels from Ed Ruiz?
If so you have fish I raised from 3 inch juveniles.
Ed kept them in almost straight RO water acidified to about a pH of 3.5 to 4.0 and they became much more colorful than when I kept them for over 4 years in my tap water which has a pH of 7.4 and 340 ppm TDS.
He is keeping them in condition almost identical to what is natural for Heckels. I know the fish did much better in his care, showing much more intense colors than they did in my water.
I wasn't willing to continue to dedicate so much care and RO water to them because I gave up on the idea of breeding them I sold them to someone who I knew would provide them with ideal water conditions. I think Ed has a 400 gpd RO system so making the large water changes in large tanks is not a problem for him. Using sulfuric or hydrochrloric(Muriatic Acid) is a legitimate way to drop the pH without having much effect on the TDS. Sodium biphospate is less powerful an acid buffer, is limited on how low it can lower the pH and it greatly increases the TDs when used at the maximum dose.
You can control the pH much easier if you begin with pure water be it RO, Distilled or Rain water. It is always approaching the problem from the wrong direction to try to start with tap water then adding chemicals to increase it's acidity. It only worsens the TDS problem.
Regardless of who you got your Heckels from it is always in their best interest to be kept in extremely soft, acid water. Check out the great deals on RO units at www.airwaterice.com They can put a good unit in your hands for less than any other source I am aware of. I plan to get their Typhoon III, 150 gpd unit for $270 but it comes loaded with accessories. You can get a unit adequate for your use for much less and for the long term welfare of your Heckels you should do so or they will begin to gradually go into decline. Heckels are very unforgiving and unadaptable to harder more alkaline water than other wild Discus although Green Discus also require rather more extreme conditions to thrive. S. haraldi can adapt to almost any potable water and even spawn successfully. Most domestics have been derived from S. haraldi and further adapted to aquarium water conditions quite at odds with their original ancestors' habitat.

[AirCapital]

let me know I cam give you the link Im not sure how they feel about putting links out there if it not a sponser. but what I have gotten was a 225gpd unit that cost 165 and it is great I have worked on the typhoons and imo this is better but without the whistles. it uses three 75gpd membranes and I am running it without a pressure pump just the tap pressure and it puts out 240gpd to be exact and my start water is 480ppm and after the r/o 10ppm and that is without a di. best deals I have found fast shipping to

[Apistomaster]

AirCapital,

That is a very good example of what can be done to obtain a large quantity of RO water on a budget. I don't use a final stage mix bed DI either. Once you have removed 97 to 98% of the dissolved chemicals how much more can one gain for aquarium water use by removing the last 2 or 3%? None that I can detect.

I have to get off my butt and install an automated shut off valve or at least an overflow prevention drain on my 2 X 55 gal plastic barrels reservoir. The flood that occurred Saturday after I fell asleep was the last straw. It was not my first flood. The pathetic thing is that I have the necessary accessories still in the bag. Curse my procrastinating nature.

[Jstuver]

Larry yes I got them from Ed Ruiz. I only have a 60g cube so it won't be too bad to change water. Mine will only do 22gpd but I only change 50% water twice a week so I think I will be ok. I just know I am lazy so hopefully it will go well
Mine is just an RO unit not a RODI should I do 100% RO water? What do I need to add back to the water if anything?

[AirCapital]

[QUOTE=Apistomaster;634372]AirCapital,

That is a very good example of what can be done to obtain a large quantity of RO water on a budget. I don't use a final stage mix bed DI either. Once you have removed 97 to 98% of the dissolved chemicals how much more can one gain for aquarium water use by removing the last 2 or 3%? None that I can detect.

I have to get off my butt and install an automated shut off valve or at least an overflow prevention drain on my 2 X 55 gal plastic barrels reservoir. The flood that occurred Saturday after I fell asleep was the last straw. It was not my first flood. The pathetic thing is that I have the necessary accessories still in the bag. Curse my procrastinating nature.[/QUOTE

I to thought it was a good deal and I havent had a problem with it at all the only thing that is a pain on this one is flushing 3 membranes manually I would get a fast flush kit for sure. I have never run the di I beleive it builds up bacteria very fast, and di is pricey to change and to me wasnt worth the extra 10ppm it would remove. as far as flooding goes well.....I had to remove the carpet....lol in the WHOLE basement and not just the fish room. the first weekend I got this I left it on while I went fishing and two days later..... not good...lol

[Apistomaster]

Jstuver,
I agree with AirCapital that the mixed bed Deioniziation cartridge is not worth the trouble and expense for fish. The ultimate in water purity is more important in laboratory work.
Sounds like I am not the only one who floods their house because of their fish keeping activities.

I don't know how many of those Discus you bought out the original 10 Ed bought from me but you should allow more room per fish than the standard 10 gal/fish often used for Discus. I would allow at least 12 gal/adult Heckel. Since I raised them to their present size I know how large they are and I think they are in too small a tank. I thought Ed just kept one pair out of the 10 fish. Did you get all eight or fewer?
If you use 90-95% RO mixed with 10 to 5% tap water you will probably end up with water having a TDS of about 30 ppm if memory serves me right about the chemistry of your tap water. Your tap water has a nice balance of calcium carbonate and magnesium sulfate making it unnecessary for you to buy any RO Right or similar commercial mineral replacements.
I recommend that you change at least 70% of their water every 3rd or 4th day.
I wanted to add that Ed is an expert on the care of Heckel Discus so you should ask him about some of your questions. I respect my fellow forum members but none live as close to you as Ed or know as much about that group of Heckels other than Ed and myself. Our advice could not possibly more directly related to that particular group of Heckels

[Jstuver]

Thanks Larry. He had eight of them and kept what he thought was a pair so I got 6 of them.

[illumnae]

Water in Singapore is starting to get bad for fish. Due to our lack of natural water, the country has taken to "recycling" water by recycling waste water from sewage. It's pretty gross, but the water that comes out is pure enough to drink. This water is called "Newater"

However, the downside to this is that more and more, fishkeepers are reporting fish health problems and/or deaths after some water changes. The correlation drawn is that such problems occur either during extremely hot periods, where the reservoirs dry out, or after thunderstorms, where the reservoirs have been churned up and the water contains loads of impurities. What this means is that the water plant adds in an extra large amount of Newater into our piped water. This Newater seems to affect our fish badly. With the recent weekly alternation of heavy rain and extremely hot weather, my fish are feeling it. I've lost over 10 Biotodoma wavrini in the last week due to this, and I'm fearing for the Heckels.

Due to the above, I've decided to invest in a De-Ionization unit. I know that people generally discourage DI units and advocate RO units instead. However, due to constraints I have, I will be using the DI unit (please don't give me advise on how to overcome these constraints, the DI unit is my only option). Basically, it's a 3 stage unit that contains 1 carbon block, and 2 different types of mixed-bed resins. The refills aren't too pricey so it suits me ok.

Due to space constraints, this water is coming straight from the tap into the unit and into the tank. No holding container whatsoever. I intend to have peat in my filter and indian almond leaves in the tank for tannins.

I'd just like to know, how should I reconstitute my water coming from the DI unit? Is Seachem Equilibrium sufficient? How much should I put per 100 gallons of water changed? Or should I get something like Seachem Discus Buffer + Discus Trace? Or is it ok to use the DI water "straight from the tap" (may be dangerous due to the tannic acid from peat?)?

Thanks in advance!

[erikc]

Water in Singapore is starting to get bad for fish. Due to our lack of natural water, the country has taken to "recycling" water by recycling waste water from sewage. It's pretty gross, but the water that comes out is pure enough to drink. This water is called "Newater"

However, the downside to this is that more and more, fishkeepers are reporting fish health problems and/or deaths after some water changes. The correlation drawn is that such problems occur either during extremely hot periods, where the reservoirs dry out, or after thunderstorms, where the reservoirs have been churned up and the water contains loads of impurities. What this means is that the water plant adds in an extra large amount of Newater into our piped water. This Newater seems to affect our fish badly. With the recent weekly alternation of heavy rain and extremely hot weather, my fish are feeling it. I've lost over 10 Biotodoma wavrini in the last week due to this, and I'm fearing for the Heckels.

Due to the above, I've decided to invest in a De-Ionization unit. I know that people generally discourage DI units and advocate RO units instead. However, due to constraints I have, I will be using the DI unit (please don't give me advise on how to overcome these constraints, the DI unit is my only option). Basically, it's a 3 stage unit that contains 1 carbon block, and 2 different types of mixed-bed resins. The refills aren't too pricey so it suits me ok.

Due to space constraints, this water is coming straight from the tap into the unit and into the tank. No holding container whatsoever. I intend to have peat in my filter and indian almond leaves in the tank for tannins.

I'd just like to know, how should I reconstitute my water coming from the DI unit? Is Seachem Equilibrium sufficient? How much should I put per 100 gallons of water changed? Or should I get something like Seachem Discus Buffer + Discus Trace? Or is it ok to use the DI water "straight from the tap" (may be dangerous due to the tannic acid from peat?)?

Thanks in advance!

Sorry to hear about the water conditions and and you fish losses, it is always saddening to hear. Okay, here's what I can advise :

Yes, you do have to reconstitute your water, otherwise you will end up burning your fish (they really won't like it). The water coming out of a DI unit is pure so you must NEVER use it straight "out of the tap" as you say.

I'm not sure about the Seachem, I don't use them. However you are re-creating water for heckels, so I wouldn't use a full dose (don't think you need it). However I would wait until someone who knows the Seachem products posts and can advise you on it's use.

[illumnae]

thanks erikc

another option i have is a normal tap water filter. It's a modular filter system and I can add as many units I want in series. Choice of filter cartridges includes:

5 micron sediment
1 micron sediment
5 micron carbon block
0.5 micron activated carbon block

No resin though. Would it be ok If I ran a 3 stage system comprising a 5 micron carbon block into a 1 micron sediment into a 0.5 activated carbon block? Would most/all the impurities be gone from this process?

Photos of the system can be found here:

http://s842.photobucket.com/home/tsktll/allalbums

[illumnae]

None can help with my water?

[erikc]

Sorry, I've been sidetracked ....

Okay, now you only want to set up a normal tap water filter system. I am sorry but it doesn't make any sense to me.

If you are worried about bacteria levels and contaminants in your tap water, the filter system won't hack it.

If you said DI was your only option (I think it is a good one) then stick with it. But as I said don't use it pure, you will burn the gills of the fish and they will try to jump out of the water !!! beleive me, I've seen it happen and it's not amusing.

[illumnae]

I was hoping the contaminants would be "taken out" by the carbon block and activated carbon block. But if it won't then I won't even consider it anymore, which leaves DI as the only option!

[erikc]

Sorry, could you start another post ? This is a bit of a highjack !

Maybe something like "Poor water quality in Singapoure", it will be interesting for your fellow countrymen discuskeepers ?

[Apistomaster]

Regardless of which water purification technology you use you still should prefilter the incoming water with a micron particulate filter, then through carbon blocks before processing in the DI cartridges or RO membrane.

I find Heckels do extremely well at a pH of 3.5 to 4.0 and only about 15 to 25 ppm TDS. In these conditions the dull dark eyes will begin to shine and become red.
This is not extreme for Heckels but if they have been kept in more ordinary water the changes to the lower pH and hardness should be done gradually.