Heckel Water conditions

[illumnae]

Sorry, could you start another post ? This is a bit of a highjack !

Maybe something like "Poor water quality in Singapoure", it will be interesting for your fellow countrymen discuskeepers ?

Thanks erik, but I don't think it's exactly a hijack, as the thread title relates to water conditions for heckels. Our discussion on purifying water for heckels could serve useful consolidated in 1 thread for future searches as opposed to being split

Regardless of which water purification technology you use you still should prefilter the incoming water with a micron particulate filter, then through carbon blocks before processing in the DI cartridges or RO membrane.

I find Heckels do extremely well at a pH of 3.5 to 4.0 and only about 15 to 25 ppm TDS. In these conditions the dull dark eyes will begin to shine and become red.
This is not extreme for Heckels but if they have been kept in more ordinary water the changes to the lower pH and hardness should be done gradually.

Thanks Larry. I'm thinking of just sticking with the micron sediment filter and 3 stages of carbon block filters and not going through the additional RO/DI stage. This should give me significantly cleaner water, without having to reconstitute the water much or at all. The carbon should already lower the TDS significantly, and the water should be soft enough that peat filtration can drop the pH low.

I'll do small 10% changes over 2 weeks to get the water slowly "introduced" into the tank for the fish to get used to it. The fish in my tank (it's a S.A. biotope tank) should be used to the low ph values that the heckels would enjoy - Symphysodon discus, Biotodoma wavrini and Satanoperca leucostricta.

As a side note, I wanted to make this a Rio Negro biotope, but my LFS mis-ided the Satanoperca as S. daemon, so I bought them...only to find the species was wrong. So I no longer have a Rio Negro biotope =(

[Ed13]

I cant'quite comment on Heckel specific conditions but,

Water in Singapore is starting to get bad for fish. Due to our lack of natural water, the country has taken to "recycling" water by recycling waste water from sewage. It's pretty gross, but the water that comes out is pure enough to drink. This water is called "Newater"

However, the downside to this is that more and more, fishkeepers are reporting fish health problems and/or deaths after some water changes. The correlation drawn is that such problems occur either during extremely hot periods, where the reservoirs dry out, or after thunderstorms, where the reservoirs have been churned up and the water contains loads of impurities. What this means is that the water plant adds in an extra large amount of Newater into our piped water. This Newater seems to affect our fish badly. With the recent weekly alternation of heavy rain and extremely hot weather, my fish are feeling it. I've lost over 10 Biotodoma wavrini in the last week due to this, and I'm fearing for the Heckels.

Sorry to hear this. Have you tested this water parameters? Besides the normal for aquarium tests, chlorine? how dif is from the tap water? and how does that water alter it's chemistry after being aged?

Due to the above, I've decided to invest in a De-Ionization unit. I know that people generally discourage DI units and advocate RO units instead. However, due to constraints I have, I will be using the DI unit (please don't give me advise on how to overcome these constraints, the DI unit is my only option). Basically, it's a 3 stage unit that contains 1 carbon block, and 2 different types of mixed-bed resins. The refills aren't too pricey so it suits me ok.

DI units alone are usually discouraged because of how quickly an aquarium type(10" canister for example) resin is exhasuted if not being used after an RO system to further purify very clean water. Commercial DI units work much better, but they are expensive and not available everywhere.
It doesn't make sense to me at all that you can't fit a DI unit and not an RO membrane housing, unless I'm missing something. I know you didn't ask for advise on how to overcome space constraints, but a simple stand alone clip(you'd need two and extra tubing) for a membrane housing is under $2 and you'd even be able to mount the membrane housing remotely from the canister(above them, below them or even in another wall), just saying

Due to space constraints, this water is coming straight from the tap into the unit and into the tank. No holding container whatsoever. I intend to have peat in my filter and indian almond leaves in the tank for tannins.

I'd just like to know, how should I reconstitute my water coming from the DI unit? Is Seachem Equilibrium sufficient? How much should I put per 100 gallons of water changed? Or should I get something like Seachem Discus Buffer + Discus Trace? Or is it ok to use the DI water "straight from the tap" (may be dangerous due to the tannic acid from peat?)?

Thanks in advance!

It's gonna be tough to reconstitute the water without holding tanks.
Just brainstorming here, but I wonder if a mixing valve being fed by the DI water and tap water would work here.

Thanks Larry. I'm thinking of just sticking with the micron sediment filter and 3 stages of carbon block filters and not going through the additional RO/DI stage. This should give me significantly cleaner water, without having to reconstitute the water much or at all. The carbon should already lower the TDS significantly, and the water should be soft enough that peat filtration can drop the pH low.

I'll do small 10% changes over 2 weeks to get the water slowly "introduced" into the tank for the fish to get used to it. The fish in my tank (it's a S.A. biotope tank) should be used to the low ph values that the heckels would enjoy - Symphysodon discus, Biotodoma wavrini and Satanoperca leucostricta.

If sediment and carbon filters alone work for you needs then by all means, this would be the best option. I'd def be doing this anyways.
Now in your case if you this route,you might want to be looking at 1-2 extra sediment filters and 1-2 extra carbon filters since you don't know what the "newater" has.

This will remove sediments, chlorine, and other impurites and toxins from the water but it'll do little to alter TDS, after all anything smaller than the smallest micron filter will still pass. You'd have to test the water with those .5 micron.

HTH and good luck working this out.

[Apistomaster]

I was going to say the same thing, that carbon filters will not alter the TDS readings significantly. The major constituents are typically calcium carbonate and magnesium sulfate and those pass thorough carbon unchanged. They will be displaced by using ion exchange resins but I too do not see a practical way a small standard canister will remove enough ions to lower the TDs to as low as Heckels prefer unless you don't mind replacing the resin about every 100 gallons of pure water produced give or take. If you have access to free resins then it would be economical but if you have to pay for it then an RO unit using the same space will produce many thousands of gallons before the membrane needs replacing.
If the prefilters are changed frequently enough a membrane should last about 5 years or more..

[illumnae]

Thanks so much for all your advice =) It's greatly appreciated. This is really "uncharted waters" for me so to speak, as Singapore has really been blessed with wonderful water for fish until the (relatively) recent introduction of newater in increasing quantities. I'll try to look into an RO unit, but due to Singapore water conditions, as you would appreciate, RO units are not common and certainly not as economical as in the US, as it's viewed as a high end luxury here due to our clean water.

Marine hobbyists use a DI resin based 10" canister for their marine needs instead of an RO filter, and they don't complain much of high running costs. Don't know if this is a good option instead? The link is here:

http://www.aquamarin.com.sg/products...?productid=379

Finally, my LFS does carry what is called a "strong acid" water softening resin that is supposed to reduce TDS and lower ph. It's pretty affordable, and it's supposed to sit in my canister filter. I'm supposed to replace it every 3 months. It's pretty affordable, but I don't know exactly what it is.

[illumnae]

I'm starting to be inclined to get the DI resin as it's actually not much more expensive than a 4 stage carbon/sediment filter. In terms of reconstituting the water, would it be ok for me to switch off the filter, drain 50% water from the tank, fill back 40% of DI water then fill back 10% of tap water before switching the filters back on to mix it all up? Or to switch off the filter, drain 50% water from the tank, fill back 50% DI water, put in Seachem Equilibrium in appropriate amounts then switch on the filters on mix it all up?

[erikc]

Thanks so much for all your advice =) It's greatly appreciated. This is really "uncharted waters" for me so to speak, as Singapore has really been blessed with wonderful water for fish until the (relatively) recent introduction of newater in increasing quantities. I'll try to look into an RO unit, but due to Singapore water conditions, as you would appreciate, RO units are not common and certainly not as economical as in the US, as it's viewed as a high end luxury here due to our clean water.

Marine hobbyists use a DI resin based 10" canister for their marine needs instead of an RO filter, and they don't complain much of high running costs. Don't know if this is a good option instead? The link is here:

http://www.aquamarin.com.sg/products...?productid=379

Finally, my LFS does carry what is called a "strong acid" water softening resin that is supposed to reduce TDS and lower ph. It's pretty affordable, and it's supposed to sit in my canister filter. I'm supposed to replace it every 3 months. It's pretty affordable, but I don't know exactly what it is.

Okay just one point,

the "strong acid" water softening resin that reduces TDS and lowers Ph should never be used in a filter (it seems pretty dubious to me). What you want to do is prepare the water before introducing it to your tank and never adjust it once it is in. You will be playing with you fishes health here.

If you are going for the DI resin option you will have to remineralise the water. what you will nedd is a large storage tank or barrel in order to do this.

[illumnae]

ugh that sucks, I definitely am not able to have a large enough storage tank/barrel in my house =( Looks like I can't give my fish the low TDS that they need... both RO and DI seem to require reconstituting in a separate storage tank/barrel prior to introduction into the tank

[damian_ireland]

how are you guys getting a stable low ph? what are you adding to the RO water?

[erikc]

how are you guys getting a stable low ph? what are you adding to the RO water?

You have to remineralise the water with apropriate salts. Its sounds starnge taking all the minerals out of the water just to re-introduce salts afterwards but it is your best guarantee of quality.

Illumnea (sorry can't get the muliple quote thing) :

IMO I would use the RO system and store the water in jerrycans. You can stack them up in a corner somewhere (I hope so).

[damian_ireland]

erikc,
i use TMC Pro Discus with my RO water but the pH comes out at 7......
Is there a better remin discus product

[erikc]

erikc,
i use TMC Pro Discus with my RO water but the pH comes out at 7......
Is there a better remin discus product

Hmm ... there are other products, I use Preiss Discus salts with no problems whatsoever but I'm not sure if they are available in Ireland.

Your pH coming out at 7 is a bit strange. These salts should affect the TDS and not the pH (they stabilise it). It could be that your membrane is out or that the readings are altered due to the salts. Is the test chemical or electronic ? What's the pH coming out of your RO unit ?

[damian_ireland]

from my understanding you cannot read the pH of RO water with a meter.
A friend uses Preiss and has he the same issue. He uses peat to lower the pH

[erikc]

from my understanding you cannot read the pH of RO water with a meter.
A friend uses Preiss and has he the same issue. He uses peat to lower the pH

No you can't, but if your membrane is out it will show up ! Have you tried a chemical test ?

Using mineral salts, then peat to lower the pH is counter productive. What kind of water are you looking for ? Depending on the type of water you want you could mix the RO with 5-10% tap water, it's actually very simple.

It is much easier to decide what type of water you want (for breeding wilds, growing out young, keeping adults, heckels etc..) than using a combination of systems or techniques.

[damian_ireland]

keeping adults(wild greens).i was thinking pH 6 tds around 70

[Apistomaster]

1. I think it would be mistake to not use a micron prefilter and then the carbon filter before it is passed through DI.
Cleaner water will increase the efficiency and longevity of a given batch of DI resin.
I find one can make steps as great as 50% RO or DI water in one step in situ providing the temperatures are similar.

Don't worry too much about the pH as it will gradually fall as the water becomes softer without adding anything. The pH change will occur slowly enough that it will be easy for the Heckels to make the change. Once you get their aquarium water TDS down to about 50 ppm the pH will stabilize at around 5.0 to 5.5 which is a good range for Heckels.
You can often do everything you want with soft water fishes by subtracting rather than adding chemicals.