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Thread: Going without a BIO-FILTER . . . ?

  1. #1
    Silver Member DonMD's Avatar
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    Default Going without a BIO-FILTER . . . ?

    My question: If I change 90% of the water daily, can I get by without a bio-filter? You ask, why do I want to do that ? ? ?

    Flukes. I have tried everything I can think of to eradicate flukes, but mine are bionic. The last effort was with MinnFinn, and after two separate series of treatments, it's NO SOAP.

    The reason I didn't use Potassium Permanganate is because with all the sand in the 125 g, and 2 canister filters, I could never keep it viable for longer than about 20 minutes, due I think to high organic load.

    So, now, I have to sterilize everything. I'll remove the sand and make it a BB, remove and sterilize the canister filters, hoses, and see if I can get the PP to remain viable for the 4-hours required. I can condition about 130 gallons every night, so I can change all the water in the tank daily.

    Without filtration, but with a 90 - 95% WC daily for 2 weeks (treating with PP every 3 days), would the fish do OK, do you think? Or would there be too much ammonia buildup during the 24 hours between WC's?

    Obviously, after successfully treating with PP, I'd re-establish the bio-filters.

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    Default Re: Going without a BIO-FILTER . . . ?

    Good question. I suspect you'd be OK using prime or safe at double the normal dose, and checking the water quality daily with a seachem ammonia test kit. It's the only one I know of that can tell the difference between free ammonia and ammonium...

    Good aeration and siphoning up the poop in the morning, water changes in the evening would probably be OK. Might want to run a canister or powerhead in such a way as to push the detritus to one end, making cleanup easier... PP shouldn't hurt the canister itself...

    I'm certainly no expert here, particularly wrt PP, but I have obtained apparent fluke eradication with Clout in BB tanks, dosing every fourth day, three times...

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    Registered Member BOBT00LS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Going without a BIO-FILTER . . . ?

    Hey Don. It can be done and I speak from experience because I did it. I had twenty four, 4-7 inch discus in a 55 gallon tank, no filtration, but heavy airation. I treated my discus with PP for 10 consecutive days and followed up every treatment daily with a 100% water change. The discus came out of it in great shape and clean as a whistle. Keep in mind that Prime will cuase your Potassium Permanganate to lose some of its effectiveness. I used straight aged/airated water with no conditioners for my water changes.

    Bob

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    Default Re: Going without a BIO-FILTER . . . ?

    It is definetly possible, just depends on a few things....pH, number of fish, how much food fed daily (protein content), along with having adequate aeration.

    -Ryan
    -Ryan Karcher
    Aquatic Eco Systems Technician

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    Registered Member Eddie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Going without a BIO-FILTER . . . ?

    Sure, its as Ryan says, many variables. For several of my pairs, I have no bio filtration, rely solely on water changes.
    Visit Eddie's Place

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    Default Re: Going without a BIO-FILTER . . . ?

    It should be doable as long as you keep up the wc. Good luck with your treatment.

    Chris
    "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."~ Mahatma Gandhi

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    Default Re: Going without a BIO-FILTER . . . ?

    I have already posted on Andrew Soh's 12 day PP treatment for flukes, but in answer to your question: Andrew's plan is a 4 hour PP bath every 4th day x 3. What I did was to do the PP baths in a sterilized smaller tank with just a heater and airstone running, and at the same time I ran a much heavier PP bath in their regular tank with the filter media pulled and dumped but the filter still going, and I threw in the water change hose as well as the net I used to move them to the treatment tank. I then thoroughly cleaned out their regular tank of all PP, put in fresh filter floss in the aquaclear, and dumped in one of the better products for jump starting biofilter. When the treatment time was up, I moved them back into the regular tank and did 70% water changes 2 x day. By the 3rd day I was down to 1 water change daily because the starter worked and the fish were clearly doing fine. Then I started over again, same process, on days 4 and 8. Completed on day 12, and this time let the biofilter build with the new media and that was it. I am now 7 months out and all discus are healthy without a reoccurance. BIG PITA to do but I didn't lose one out of the 12 juvies in there. They were 12 weeks at time of treatment and they were in a 37g tank. A few weeks after treatment was comlted they moved into a 125 and are thriving.
    Hope that helps?
    Harriett

  8. #8
    Silver Member DonMD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Going without a BIO-FILTER . . . ?

    Bob,

    Did your water also have chloramines in it? And, thanks very much for sharing this experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by BOBT00LS View Post
    Hey Don. It can be done and I speak from experience because I did it. I had twenty four, 4-7 inch discus in a 55 gallon tank, no filtration, but heavy airation. I treated my discus with PP for 10 consecutive days and followed up every treatment daily with a 100% water change. The discus came out of it in great shape and clean as a whistle. Keep in mind that Prime will cuase your Potassium Permanganate to lose some of its effectiveness. I used straight aged/airated water with no conditioners for my water changes.

    Bob

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    Registered Member rickztahone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Going without a BIO-FILTER . . . ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harriett View Post
    I have already posted on Andrew Soh's 12 day PP treatment for flukes, but in answer to your question: Andrew's plan is a 4 hour PP bath every 4th day x 3. What I did was to do the PP baths in a sterilized smaller tank with just a heater and airstone running, and at the same time I ran a much heavier PP bath in their regular tank with the filter media pulled and dumped but the filter still going, and I threw in the water change hose as well as the net I used to move them to the treatment tank. I then thoroughly cleaned out their regular tank of all PP, put in fresh filter floss in the aquaclear, and dumped in one of the better products for jump starting biofilter. When the treatment time was up, I moved them back into the regular tank and did 70% water changes 2 x day. By the 3rd day I was down to 1 water change daily because the starter worked and the fish were clearly doing fine. Then I started over again, same process, on days 4 and 8. Completed on day 12, and this time let the biofilter build with the new media and that was it. I am now 7 months out and all discus are healthy without a reoccurance. BIG PITA to do but I didn't lose one out of the 12 juvies in there. They were 12 weeks at time of treatment and they were in a 37g tank. A few weeks after treatment was comlted they moved into a 125 and are thriving.
    Hope that helps?
    Harriett
    I know everyone has been avoiding Harriett's method (per Mr. Soh) because it's so involved but at this point Don, i think it's your only hope. i have recently successfully treated for flukes with pure prazi from Jehmco. i'm on the 3rd and last treatment but i have not seen any flashing, gill problems, or anything that would indicate that the flukes survived the treatment. if they did survive, then it is something that the discus will have to live with because i'm tired of treating for flukes. oddly enough, my plants didn't take the hit like i thought they would, some actually grew more with the irregular water changes, go figure. anyway, i wish you luck with whatever you decide Don. keep in mind that the best solution might be to keep moving the discus from one tank to the other since the flukes need a host and die off if they do not have one. you will have to nuke everything in your current tank.

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  10. #10
    Silver Member DonMD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Going without a BIO-FILTER . . . ?

    Thanks Harriett and Rick and others. Harriett, I did see your earlier posts, and as Rick says, was avoiding it due to PITA factors . . .

    So, it's down to it now, though. I just have to check my calendar carefully and make sure I have the time to dedicate to this effort. Thanks, all, I'll let you know if I'm successful. AHHHHHHHH. LOL.

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    Registered Member BOBT00LS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Going without a BIO-FILTER . . . ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don in Virginia View Post
    Bob,

    Did your water also have chloramines in it? And, thanks very much for sharing this experience.

    Hello Don. There are no chlorimines in my water which is why I was able to just age and airate without using prime during the PP treatment. If you have any questions feel free to get in touch.


    Bob

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    Default Re: Going without a BIO-FILTER . . . ?

    Don,
    Here's a thought. 125 gal is a LOT of water. Perhaps you might fill your tank only to half during the treatment. And you'll use less meds which means less meds get dumped into the sewage system.

    Just a thought.

    Tim

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    Registered Member nc0gnet0's Avatar
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    Default Re: Going without a BIO-FILTER . . . ?

    without using prime during the PP treatment.
    Why on earth would you use prime during a PP treatment? Prime will deactivate the PP rendering it useless.

    Don, if your worried about ammonia levels during your PP treatment remove you bio media from your filters (it will get hammered by the PP anyways) and put in some zeolite during the treatment cycle.

  14. #14
    Registered Member nc0gnet0's Avatar
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    Default Re: Going without a BIO-FILTER . . . ?

    I like harriets method although I think it would only be neccesary for the first cycle to remove the fish from the display tank. Nuke the display tank with a 20-30 ppm dose for 4 hours, then hit it with 1/4 cup of hydrogen peroxide, add lots of air and let sit for 2-3 hours before adding back fish. This should effectivley oxidize all the built up DOC's and the remaining treatments should be possible in the display tank.

  15. #15
    Silver Member DonMD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Going without a BIO-FILTER . . . ?

    Quote Originally Posted by nc0gnet0 View Post
    I like harriets method although I think it would only be neccesary for the first cycle to remove the fish from the display tank. Nuke the display tank with a 20-30 ppm dose for 4 hours, then hit it with 1/4 cup of hydrogen peroxide, add lots of air and let sit for 2-3 hours before adding back fish. This should effectivley oxidize all the built up DOC's and the remaining treatments should be possible in the display tank.
    Sorry, I don't know what DOC's are, can you specify?

    I obviously am not going to use Prime while using PP, I've found out before that it interferes. And, I am planning on taking both canister filters and sterilizing separately. Then, with no filtration, change out 95% of the water with aged water that has been aerated but not de-chorimined, treat with PP for four hours, clear it with hydrogen perozide and then add Prime, repeating daily for 10 days.

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