Going without a BIO-FILTER . . . ?

[keno]

DOC's are dissolved organic compounds

[nc0gnet0]

DOC's = Dissolved organic compounds. This is what uses up the PP causing it to go brown color (if this happens the PP is spent, you need it to mantain the purple/pink color during treatment). By removing the fish from your tank and treating seperately, this should allow you to treat the original tank at a much higher dose, thus oxidizing your DOC's (and any nasty bugs). I routinely treat my water lilly's in 30 ppm without any ill effects before I put them in my pond (however if you have any snails it will kill them).

I am just thinking this should allow you to do the follow up treatments within the same tank on treatments two and three. The follow-up with hydrogen peroxide will also further oxidize any remaining DOC's as well as turn your water from brown to crystal clear. There is no need to add prime to the display tank (when the fish are not in the tank) as hydrogen peroxide will turn the PP off just as well. But, I would not advise using hydrogen peroxide on the tank in which you are treating the discus with PP, as this will result in a dramatic drop in your ORP, possibly sending your fish into shock.

[Harriett]

DOC's = Dissolved organic compounds. This is what uses up the PP causing it to go brown color (if this happens the PP is spent, you need it to mantain the purple/pink color during treatment). By removing the fish from your tank and treating seperately, this should allow you to treat the original tank at a much higher dose, thus oxidizing your DOC's (and any nasty bugs). I routinely treat my water lilly's in 30 ppm without any ill effects before I put them in my pond (however if you have any snails it will kill them).

I am just thinking this should allow you to do the follow up treatments within the same tank on treatments two and three. The follow-up with hydrogen peroxide will also further oxidize any remaining DOC's as well as turn your water from brown to crystal clear. There is no need to add prime to the display tank (when the fish are not in the tank) as hydrogen peroxide will turn the PP off just as well. But, I would not advise using hydrogen peroxide on the tank in which you are treating the discus with PP, as this will result in a dramatic drop in your ORP, possibly sending your fish into shock.

Just a last clarification: I believe Andrew advised moving the discus to a treatment tank for all three treatments while NUKING the regular tank was to eliminate any possibility that you have ANY fluke issues in the original tank, including the net used to move the discus to the treatment tank, the filtration system, and water changing hoses, in order to completely empty it, clean it out and refill with warm salted conditioned water to get the fish into immediately post treatment [no lights--they need to rest]. The PP treatments are not a piece of cake on the discus, though they did FINE--I watched them closely the last hour of every treatment. Mine stayed upright but were quiet and listless after getting them moved back to their home and didn't want to eat until the next day, after the PP baths. Then they were normal in behaviour. Remember with this approach, get rid of the filter media--it is not worth the risk that it harbors flukes or eggs. I just used cheap blue+white floss style, about 2 bucks worth total.
That's all I've got. It was 100% worth it and not that hard to do.
Best regards,
Harriett

[sayid]

My question: If I change 90% of the water daily, can I get by without a bio-filter? You ask, why do I want to do that ? ? ?

Flukes. I have tried everything I can think of to eradicate flukes, but mine are bionic. The last effort was with MinnFinn, and after two separate series of treatments, it's NO SOAP.

The reason I didn't use Potassium Permanganate is because with all the sand in the 125 g, and 2 canister filters, I could never keep it viable for longer than about 20 minutes, due I think to high organic load.

So, now, I have to sterilize everything. I'll remove the sand and make it a BB, remove and sterilize the canister filters, hoses, and see if I can get the PP to remain viable for the 4-hours required. I can condition about 130 gallons every night, so I can change all the water in the tank daily.

Without filtration, but with a 90 - 95% WC daily for 2 weeks (treating with PP every 3 days), would the fish do OK, do you think? Or would there be too much ammonia buildup during the 24 hours between WC's?

Obviously, after successfully treating with PP, I'd re-establish the bio-filters.

Hi Don;
I realize that this thread is old but i just thought i ask , i am facing the same dilemma with gill fluke ,i have a 55 gallon tank which i need to nuke with high 10 mg per liter of PP and for 2 weeks i need to house my 15 adult discus in it without any bio filter and relying on 95% WATER CHANGE every day , i believe you went through this exercise , was it successful or not ?
Sayid

[Filip]

Thanks for reviving this old but very informative thread Sayid . I kinda miss this kind of discussions and members interest nowadays.
You can send PM to Don with a link to this thread so he can catch it next time he is logged in . He is getting started again with discus after a period of brake so he may not be too active to catch this one without a notification.

As for the experience . I've recently been through the same experience and from all i could see it went just fine .
I've done the total sterilization of tank and equipment with 4 hour 20 PPM PP bath while my 11 - 5 inch discus were resting in a fresh 20 gallon tank for 24 hours after their first PP treatment .
I have done the tank and equipment sterilization only after their first PP treatment and the next 3 treatments were performed in the same uncycled tank to a total of 4 treatments (16 days span ) .
I've changed 90% water every day and fed very little and they did just fine through the whole treatment and afterwards .

[ssevasta]

Yea it really sucks that most of our most knowledgeable and experienced members have moved on. I spend almost all my time on the site just reading the older threads from back then. It’s a much different crowd now than when i joined in 09.

[White Worm]

Yup

[DonMD]

Hi Don;
I realize that this thread is old but i just thought i ask , i am facing the same dilemma with gill fluke ,i have a 55 gallon tank which i need to nuke with high 10 mg per liter of PP and for 2 weeks i need to house my 15 adult discus in it without any bio filter and relying on 95% WATER CHANGE every day , i believe you went through this exercise , was it successful or not ?
Sayid

I have never had any luck using PP. When I suspect flukes, I use praziquantel. But I do think the fish can handle a tank without a bio filter as long as you change most or all of their water daily.

[DonMD]

I have never had any luck using PP. When I suspect flukes, I use praziquantel. But I do think the fish can handle a tank without a bio filter as long as you change most or all of their water daily.

And also doubling up on the Safe, or whatever conditioner you use to remove chlorine because that usually detoxifies nitrites.

[sayid]

Filip ;
Thanks for your quick reply, . did you sterilize the filter media using 10% bleach ?
. also did you use Stability to jump start the cycling ?
Sean;
Thanks for your input.
Mike;
Thanks for your input.
Don;
Thanks for remembering what happened 7 years ago ,i have used a 21 days course of praziquantel with no success ,i plan to use 90% w/c using double dose of Safe as you suggested on a daily bases ,i also plan to use added salt for a month as an insurance against infection in the water.

[sayid]

This is a 55 g tank which is going to have 15 adult discus and 8 sterbais ,it has a very thin layer of PS but the plant pot and drift wood are going to be removed before the treatment.20171109_215525_1510225725697_resized.jpg

[sayid]

This is my 130 g tank which contains 10 adult discus 6 to 7 inch and 4 sterbais at the moment ,all the fish are going to be transfer d to the 55 g tank before the treatment,the plant pot and the drift wood are transferred to be bleached separately.20171109_215608_resized.jpg
Also 130 g tank has 2 canister filter and 55g tank 1 canister ,i plan to sterilize the sponge media using 10 % bleach and seachem matrix is going to be nuked using microwave .
Please let me know what you think.
Thanks
Sayid

[Filip]

Sayid , I've used 20 ppm of PP for 4 hours to sterilize the main tank and equipment .
I didn't use any bottled bio bacteria as starter but just plain 90% daily WCs and bigger dose of Safe . Day prior the next PP treatment I've skipped the Safe to avoid PP neutralization by it.
You can just pour Bleach or PP in tanks and leave the canisters along with the media inside runing(including matrix) .
Afterwards you just rinse them under tap and they are done sterilizing .
Unroot the plants , sterilize them and then pot them in new fresh sand / soil pots .
Keep the fish in your 130 g during the cycling proces because of their bioload , 15 grown in 55 g without established filter will be an overkill .

BTW , very nice looking discus .
I'm curious about the trick with the background light on your 55 g tank . It gives a romantic dawn or twighlight effect to the tank .

[sayid]

Hi Filip;
Thanks for the nice words ,I am going to start a new thread on how i did the back light to produce the twilight effect with step by step photos ,just give me a bit more times and i will let you know.

[Filip]

Hi Filip;
Thanks for the nice words ,I am going to start a new thread on how i did the back light to produce the twilight effect with step by step photos ,just give me a bit more times and i will let you know.

Looking forward to that Sayid :-)