... even a year later ...

[vera]

any new pics Erikc?
did u have any attempt of the older Heckels u've got to spawn ?

[erikc]

Hi,
no, sorry, no new pictures, as I've said before I'm lazy. The newest Heckels are coming along beautifully, growing at a steady pace and starting to show some really nice colours.

I have a couple with my Heckels, an Abacaxis and Nhamunda, sadly I lack the time and space to pursue this. They have been acting on occasion as any other spawning discus couple would, shimmying, isolated spot in the tank etc.

For the moment we are just enjoying keeping them, it really is amazing to observe the Heckel group dynamics, they bring a lot of pleasure to the household !

[Second Hand Pat]

Erikc, your heckels are amazing and after reading your thread I'm opting out of keeping heckels anytime soon. I just received my first group of wilds week after x-mas and they are doing way better then I expected them too. My reading on wilds indicates that vegetable based foods consist of a good portion of their diet and I am feeding my group my BH mix which is 50% vegetable. I also feed a variety of other frozen, flake and FDBW.

Best of luck with your awesome heckels.

[erikc]

Erikc, your heckels are amazing and after reading your thread I'm opting out of keeping heckels anytime soon. I just received my first group of wilds week after x-mas and they are doing way better then I expected them too. My reading on wilds indicates that vegetable based foods consist of a good portion of their diet and I am feeding my group my BH mix which is 50% vegetable. I also feed a variety of other frozen, flake and FDBW.

Best of luck with your awesome heckels.

Thanks, I'm just sharing what knowledge I have of these fish, so people can have a better understanding.

They are truly worth all the effort but you have to be aware of what you are doing and getting into.

Good luck with your WC's and may you enjoy them a long time.

[tolga]

Hi Erikc, this is a quick question from a new member who is aspiring to start up his own heckel aquarium in the livingroom. I understand u don't use wood on a regular basis and you talk about adding mineral salts to the RO water preparation for young heckles. Can I ask how you prepare water for your grownup heckels. Is it straight RO without any additional mineral salts and trace elements? Also, what method do you use to bring the ph down? I couldn't notice any tannins in your water. Do you use any peat or almond leaves? I am currently grappling with the question of water. I am not sure as to wether or not i should provide tannin stained amazon type water which heiko and others advocate, or to concentrate on providing clean and even create crystal clear water in the right ph and hardness (ie straight Ro water with a minute addition of discus salts and muriatic acid to bring the ph down to lower 5's) such a tank may not have an abundance of trace elements as Purigen would strip most of these out. I suppose the later option would be better for a living room, I'm not sure if it would be better for Heckels I'm planning to keep. I'll be grateful if you can talk to some of these issues as your photographs prove that whatever you are doing whith these fish it is working. Thanks again for sharing all this with us.

[erikc]

tolga,

I use just straight RO, aged for a day for the adult heckels. For mineral salts use the manufacturers recommendations, these are essential for the developpment of younger fish.

Do not, I repeat, do not mix any type of acid with RO. This is just ridiculous, you are going to burn your fish and they will not like it. RO and Purigen ? I don't get it. You should seriously brush up on the water chemistry first. Don't try running before you can walk.

What is more important than having the correct PH as in the blackwater Amazon (i.e. under 4) is to have the most stable environnement possible. Do not mess about with the water parameters, you are just asking for trouble. Also , give them the best filtration possible, do not skimp on this point. What else ? Don't move them from tank to tank, they take easily about six months to adapt to their new environnement so do not overly stress them.

Again, I can not stress the importance of a very well balanced diet for keeping Heckels, the rest is experience. I have been a Cichlid enthusiast off and on for over 25years now and I have fascination for Heckels, but you have to learn how to respect the fishes needs and requirements before they give it back to you.

[tolga]

Thank you for your detailed reply. I take your point about the use of acid. I only mentioned it as a possible means for bringing the ph of a straight RO water down in a seperate storage unit as it had been suggested by others in this forum. But I hear you loud and clear and it is not my intention to compromise the health of heckels by adding this substance. I already have two large eheim canisters one of whic is a wet and dry. The filtration will have to be top notch. I was toying with the idea of using Purigen in the filter in addition to the biological media in order to achieve crystal clear water as opposed to a more natural looking black water type tank full of essential trace elements but this may be the subject of a separate thread and I wouldn't want to be seen as hijacking this one. I was also thinking about adding extra calcium to the food as the straight RO water would be more or less depleted of calcium and I thought the luck of calcium in the water could be balanced by the food rich in calcium, than again this is something I need to work out in practice. Lastly, I fully appreciate your point about the importance of providing stable water conditions as opposed to tampering with the ph, does that mean you let the straight RO water (minus the post membrane polishing chamber I assume) simply reach it's own ph in the tank and achieve some kind of a long term equilibrium with the help of the natural biological processes? I am basically trying to understand your technique of water preperation as it appears to work. The proof of the pudding is in the eating as they say. Can you tell me your water parameters? Again thanks for sharing all this. Tolga

[Apistomaster]

Hi Tolga,
There is nothing wrong with keeping a reservoir of several food grade 55 gal plastic barrels of RO water mixed with a small amount of tap water for some mineral content and using Muriatic Acid to lower the pH to your desired target.
Always make all chemistry adjustments in the reservoirs and never in the fishes tank.
Purigen may be used in the Heckel tank. It only removes organics and does not affect the mineral content or pH of their water. I have used Purigen for 5 years or more in my Heckel tank until I sold the 10 Heckels I had raised from 3-1/2 inch juveniles. Purigen helps to maintain a higher redox potential by removing oxygen consuming organics. A high redox potential is associated with very high water quality.
You will notice that Heckels will have better color if you use this kind of water and Purigen in a filter. The best way to use Purigen is in a PhosBan reactor or similar device in the sump of a wet/dry filter. In some reactors you must use some fine filter felt pads to retain the small granules of Purigen. Purigen seems to be almost indefinitely reusable as it is easily regenerated in a strong bleach solution.
I recommend a TDS of less than 30 ppm and a pH of 4.0 to 4.5.
Heckels do appreciate the use of Cattapa leaves but if you decide to use them the Purigen will remove so much of the organic chemicals they release that it is a waste of time to use them together.
I recommend more water changes than Erik. I normally try to change about 75% of their water every 4 or 5 days.

[tolga]

Hi Larry, thank you for your contribution. Assuming that the heckels may feel more at home in the tannin stained water, it may make sense to provide a more backwater environment at the outset in order to mitigate the stresses associated with being introduced in to a new aquarium. And maybe after a period of time, perhaps a month or to, Purigen could be introduced to clear the water and to raise the Redox levels which may be better for them in the long run despite the fact that the Redox levels in the Rio Negro waters are said to be not very high. I started thinking like this after reading the point expressed in this thread about the importance of not stressing these fish in the first few months and Erickc's practice of removing the wood from the tank after a period of introduction. I do intend to keep the wood for the biotipical value it adds but deal with the brownish or yellowish stain in the tank by relying on Purigen as I am increasingly veering towards the idea of creating gin clear water which would be better for the viewer and also as I now understand better for the discus due to higher Redox values. My eheim canister has three chambers, can I not add the Purigen to the last chamber? That would be much more convenient than fitting an additional reactor and a pump. I have also considered an ozone generator for achieving similar if not better water conditions but there are a number of issues associated with this option, namely, the price, the dangers of letting free O3 in the tank and the living room, stunting the growth of nitrate recusing bacteria in the biological filter with all the long term implications of such a senarioand the unwillingness to use carbon in a reactor as it would also remove essential trace elements. So, I suppose it'll be, Purigen and uv steriliser for me. I hope I am not being too opportunistic by jumping in like this. I just want to do things right the first time as this is going to be a major investment to say the least. Thanks again.

[hedut]

They look fantastic, I can't see deference

[erikc]

Thank you for your detailed reply. I take your point about the use of acid. I only mentioned it as a possible means for bringing the ph of a straight RO water down in a seperate storage unit as it had been suggested by others in this forum. But I hear you loud and clear and it is not my intention to compromise the health of heckels by adding this substance. I already have two large eheim canisters one of whic is a wet and dry. The filtration will have to be top notch. I was toying with the idea of using Purigen in the filter in addition to the biological media in order to achieve crystal clear water as opposed to a more natural looking black water type tank full of essential trace elements but this may be the subject of a separate thread and I wouldn't want to be seen as hijacking this one. I was also thinking about adding extra calcium to the food as the straight RO water would be more or less depleted of calcium and I thought the luck of calcium in the water could be balanced by the food rich in calcium, than again this is something I need to work out in practice. Lastly, I fully appreciate your point about the importance of providing stable water conditions as opposed to tampering with the ph, does that mean you let the straight RO water (minus the post membrane polishing chamber I assume) simply reach it's own ph in the tank and achieve some kind of a long term equilibrium with the help of the natural biological processes? I am basically trying to understand your technique of water preperation as it appears to work. The proof of the pudding is in the eating as they say. Can you tell me your water parameters? Again thanks for sharing all this. Tolga

Just staright RO water that has been aged, that's all. However, as Larry points out , you may want to up the water changes. I have been doing this for years and it is just out of habit now more than anything else.

I've never heard of Purigen in Europe so I am not familiar with it, thanks for the info Larry.

Water parameters ? Lets see, the last time I've checked ph around 4, temp. around 27°C and the rest is anyone's guess. It's really a stable environnement, if something goes wrong the fish will be first first to tell you. To my shame I really don't chekk on the parameters so much anymore.

[Apistomaster]

I always had branches of wood in my Heckel Tank but not any Cattapa leaves.
The Purigen does remove the tannins and lignins from the water but since Purigen is easily and quickly recharged that is not a problem. I have 4 liters of Purigen so some fresh Purigen is always available.
The redox potential of the Rio Negro proper is fairly high. It is lower in the lagos isolated in the dry season but Discus spawn during the high water in the flood plain forest.

Once I have established a healthy stable aquarium I rarely test for any of the usual parameters either.
It is as you say, the fish themselves are good indicators of water quality if you are a close observer and most of us who choose to keep wild Discus spend a lot of time observing them.

Purigen may be used to good effect in a filter but you get the most benefits out of less Purigen when it is used in a reactor. It makes it easier to replace with fresh Purigen when you use a reactor for me but maybe that is because my primary filter is a 1000 gph wet/dry filter. I use an Eheim classic 2217 as a supplemental filter.

Here are a couple of photos of my Heckel tank before i sold them.

[Apistomaster]

I believe as long as you feed your Heckels a balanced diet no calcium is necessary to meet the fishes needs. As healthy as all your Heckels are I seriously doubt they are experiencing any dietary deficiencies of any micronutrients. But calcium supplements do no harm and their costs are negligible so it mostly comes down to personal preferences rather than necessity.

I know some breeders raise their young discus in water that contains more dissolved minerals than their breeding water which may be mostly RO but I suspect the mineral content is less responsible for the good growth as is the convenience of using tap water which makes changing large amounts of water frequently more convenient and the resulting high water quality is what really helps the fish grow so well in relatively crowded conditions. Discus, even Heckels, grow very fast in their first year even though their native waters are bereft of minerals. So their food must be the primary source of the needed minerals rather than adsorption of them from the water.

As a side note, I have read recently that calcium supplements for humans have not been shown to be very helpful in keeping up the calcium in the bones of humans. Here too it is how well balanced your diet has always been that makes the most difference. Just some food for thought. I think I came across this information in an article in the science section of the New York Times.

[tolga]

Thank you Erikc and Larry. You have been very helpfully and this is a great forum. I am minded to experiment with aging straight RO water. I am just not sure if the ph of the straight RO water will be similar to the bilologically mature water in the tank when doing water changes and whether the process of aireating the RO water in the container runs counter to the principle of aging. I prosume this water would need to be aireated before being added into the tank. Then again, if we are talking about a %30 percent water change, any difference in the ph values between the two may even out and cause not too much of an issue. As you can see, I am still at the stage of speculating here, and at some stage I will need to bite the apple inorder to know it, as it were. This thread has been very useful for me. I now have some of the most fundamental principles of heckel keeping firmly established in my head. I have also managed to get an insight in to a number of details and I can work out the rest with the help of the heckels. The issue of the frequency of water changes is also clear. There may be more than one route in arriving at the same objective, or as the Turkish saying goes, " every hero has his own way of eating yogurt" LOL... I will try and provide a varied and balance diet but getting the heckels used to all this differend types of food may pose some challenge. Living here in London enables me to work with Paul Lucas of Discus South. I was impressed with his wild Heckels during a show I attended last year and he has always been very helpfull with advise. I still need to organise my ultimate set up though and I'm still raising funds. Regarding Purigen, I thought of using the two large Eheim canisters I have inherited. But, fitting in a separate reactor with it's own pump may free up more space in my existing canisters for extra biological media which can't be bad I suppose. The whole thing would have to run on a cowed loop principle. Larry, thanks for sharing the calcium info from the New York Times. I have heard something along these lines before. I was previously thinking of using a fine grater to grate some cuttlefish bones into a frozen food preparation (don't lough) but mY e now I'll look for a variety of good quality commercial feeds. Thanks again.

[tolga]

Sorry about the spelling. I meant closed loop. I struggle sometimes. Cheers.