Acrifliavin discussion continued....

[Fons_van_der_Hart]

Tony and Jeffrey’s facilities and more show fish.

Attachment 57578

Why is the water in those tanks so green?
This indicates to me as medicine use on a very young age.

I see no need for using medicines for outgrowing fry...

[Kingdom Come Discus]

Jeffrey ships his fish in a mild Acriflavine solution. I think those tanks with the green hue have fish in them which are ready for shipping and are not the grow out tanks. He claims this helps the fish to cope with stress caused by ammonia. I thank you for your observation and your comments. I will ask him about this to make sure about this and get back with you.

Thanks,
Kraig

[Fons_van_der_Hart]

Hi Kraig,
When we move out the fry to new tank or move from tank to tank due to curling, we need to use small amount of acriflavin to protect the skin.
After that nomore medicine in it.

First of all why should fish start curling when moving from tank to tank?
If your hatchery is clean and all the fish are healthy there's no need to use any medicine at all.

I'm very active into the Discus world for about 20 years, seen a lot of hatcheries and I have spoken to many breeders and authors but never heard of this.

[Kingdom Come Discus]

First of all why should fish start curling when moving from tank to tank?
If your hatchery is clean and all the fish are healthy there's no need to use any medicine at all.

I'm very active into the Discus world for about 20 years, seen a lot of hatcheries and I have spoken to many breeders and authors but never heard of this.

This is not my hatchery. IP Discus has a great reputation, with Tony Tan breeding many Grand Champion fish. Check out this link:

http://tonytanipdiscus.com/discus_ph...s/DSC_0947.jpg

I have been in the Discus world too for over 20 years now and I know every breeder has different things they do, different methods they use. I have not traveled out of country but I have traveled throughout the states visiting hatcheries for the last 20 years. I too, over the years have talked with many breeders and authors. Most of them are no longer in business or they are dead. One thing I learned from all these people is they all medicate at one time or another. Many may seemed mislead by what the methods they use, from adding large amounts of salt to dosing with PP every time they think they may have a little problem. No one does the same thing. Until recently I had never heard of using acriflavine and I don't pretend to be a biologist/ fish pathologist. But with Brewmaster here we all have a direct link to a very good biologist, one of the best I have seen with fish disease knowledge. And with the states extension office I have a direct link to a fish pathologist who I like working with. The price is free, and I don't sell fish until that batch has a clean record after at least six weeks of quarantine. I don't mean the fish just seem well or look good after six weeks but I take a dozen fish to the fish pathologist and he does a extensive post mortem exam on them. If there is a problem the fish don't leave here.

Thanks for your comments and concerns. They are valid. I too am very paranoid when it comes to methods and people I haven’t heard of. I look forward to your future comments on what I bring to the forum and what I do. I will take all these comments very seriously as you certainly have a lot of experience. One can learn much from criticism. If you would like to talk with me sometime my number is on my web site, please call anytime. www.kingdomcomediscus.com If I don't answer I will get back with soon. One last note, I assure you Tony Tans has great fish for his reputation speaks for it's self.


Have a great day,
Kraig Koontz

[Fons_van_der_Hart]

This is not my hatchery. IP Discus has a great reputation, with Tony Tan breeding many Grand Champion fish. Check out this link:

http://tonytanipdiscus.com/discus_ph...s/DSC_0947.jpg

I have been in the Discus world too for over 20 years now and I know every breeder has different things they do, different methods they use. I have not traveled out of country but I have traveled throughout the states visiting hatcheries for the last 20 years. I too, over the years have talked with many breeders and authors. Most of them are no longer in business or they are dead. One thing I learned from all these people is they all medicate at one time or another. Many may seemed mislead by what the methods they use, from adding large amounts of salt to dosing with PP every time they think they may have a little problem. No one does the same thing. Until recently I had never heard of using acriflavine and I don't pretend to be a biologist/ fish pathologist. But with Brewmaster here we all have a direct link to a very good biologist, one of the best I have seen with fish disease knowledge. And with the states extension office I have a direct link to a fish pathologist who I like working with. The price is free, and I don't sell fish until that batch has a clean record after at least six weeks of quarantine. I don't mean the fish just seem well or look good after six weeks but I take a dozen fish to the fish pathologist and he does a extensive post mortem exam on them. If there is a problem the fish don't leave here.

Thanks for your comments and concerns. They are valid. I too am very paranoid when it comes to methods and people I haven’t heard of. I look forward to your future comments on what I bring to the forum and what I do. I will take all these comments very seriously as you certainly have a lot of experience. One can learn much from criticism. If you would like to talk with me sometime my number is on my web site, please call anytime. www.kingdomcomediscus.com If I don't answer I will get back with soon. One last note, I assure you Tony Tans has great fish for his reputation speaks for it's self.


Have a great day,
Kraig Koontz

Hi Kraig,

I know Tony's and Jeffrey's reputations for many years. I meet them every two years in Duisburg and talk with them aswell. But not only whit them also other breeders and authors from Asia which have been at their place.

I was absolutely surprised by seeing tanks, especially from these worldwide very respected breeders, loaded with medicines and I am even more surprised the answers. As you know just as well as I do there's absolutely no need to use medication in raising and shipping Discus.

Using medicines as a "standard" procedure in raising any kind of animal, with the exception of deworming medicines) is only contra productive and I'm very disappointed by those so highly respected breeders by doing so.

[DerekFF]

Hi Kraig,

I know Tony's and Jeffrey's reputations for many years. I meet them every two years in Duisburg and talk with them aswell. But not only whit them also other breeders and authors from Asia which have been at their place.

I was absolutely surprised by seeing tanks, especially from these worldwide very respected breeders, loaded with medicines and I am even more surprised the answers. As you know just as well as I do there's absolutely no need to use medication in raising and shipping Discus.

Using medicines as a "standard" procedure in raising any kind of animal, with the exception of deworming medicines) is only contra productive and I'm very disappointed by those so highly respected breeders by doing so.

Dang Fons, you hurt my feelings just by reading your posts.....dont buy their fish then...

[DaydreamDiscus]

I agree with you Derek.. Fons, just don't buy their fish..

As for me, my fish from Jeffrey Wang are very healthy, so I can vouch for their quality, have you owned any of his fish before before you criticize?

Also, think about this, medicine costs money! He feels enough and strongly that it is helping his fish be higher quality that he is adding extra expense to his whole operation. Imagine how much medicine alone would cost him in a year?? There are plenty, I mean plenty, of breeders who would cut costs and take as many cheap short cuts as possible, like medicine as soon as they can (less frequent water changes to save money, lowering temps to save money, etc. etc.) He has been a breeder for a loong time, and if he justifies his medication through his expertise and years of experience, then great.

I haven't heard of too many (if any at all) complaints about his fish. Have you? It is the end product that matters.

[Kingdom Come Discus]

First off thanks for those of you who are undersanding.

Second, Fons I am sorry this upsets you so. I don't know what I can do to change anything about this. I hope we can be on good terms regardless.

Thanks,
Kraig

[Fons_van_der_Hart]

@DerekFF,
Why shouldn't I buy their fish?
I know there's much more happening at other breeders as you could have read here some months ago. I just express my feelings about useless adding medicines, something what's imo not neccessary for a respected breeder as Jeffrey.

@JCF2Q,
Read my postings again and you'll see I never said anything about unhealthy fish nor about the quality of the fish. In contrary I've seen many of his fish winning awards at the major Discus Championships around the world. In my opinion the use of medications without any good reason will only weakening the fish in the longer term. Or at least this could lower their resistance. For instance Look what happened with the use of Metro during the last 10 years.
And finally don't you think you paid yourself for the use of medications by the breeder?

@Kraig,
No hard feelings at all. As far as I can see you're a decent importer with a good quarantaine discipline. Something what can't be said of all importers worldwide.
I'll certainly will talk with Jeffrey and Tony in Duisburg and I'll ask about that. The answers they will give will certainly be published on my website.

[Kingdom Come Discus]

Thank you Fons,

I spent months early this year talking with the Malaysian Discus Society and pursuing many leads for a quality importer. After talking with Jeffrey many times I knew he was very, very honest. I have always felt good about doing business with him from day one. This was not the case for a half dozen other inquiries I made with other importers, who seemed to have good fish. I am proud IP Discus /Tony Tan and Jeffrey took me in and I will stand behind them all the way.

I understand where you are coming from completely and from what you have told me your experience in the hobby far out weighs mine. I look forward to talking with you in the future and maybe even meeting you one day in Duisenberg. Despite all of this I still have complete faith in IP Discus, and I will stand behind every fish that leaves here completely.

I hope when you talk with Jeffrey and Tony at Duisenberg it will be a good enjoyable conversation. Please enjoy yourself at the show. It is a dream of mine to go one day.

Have a great week,
Kraig

[forrest]

hi all,
just my very own opinion here about the uses of acrifanvin. i use acrifanvin every time after i select fishes n mix them into tanks. reason,they maybe scratches or wounds on the fishes during selection of fishes. as an exporter, i cant afford to wait till i see the fishes not doing well after selection bcos of the wounds or scratches.

this is just an example, when we have a small cut on our finger, to apply med or not is up to us, u can take the risk of waiting for it to get better by itself or u can do something to prevent it for getting worst. to me, i rather to have prevention n not getting the whole shipment shrew up bcos of just few fishes that ve been hurt during the transportation. pls do remember, after the selection of fishes, those have been selected have to go thru a very stressful journey with empty stomach for atleat 3-4 days, we have to make sure the fishes with the best protection n keep them in top form b4 shipping them out.

im poor in english, just trying my best to express myself n hope u guys can understand my broken english,thx.

best rgds,
forrest.

[Kingdom Come Discus]

hi all,
just my very own opinion here about the uses of acrifanvin. i use acrifanvin every time after i select fishes n mix them into tanks. reason,they maybe scratches or wounds on the fishes during selection of fishes. as an exporter, i cant afford to wait till i see the fishes not doing well after selection bcos of the wounds or scratches.

this is just an example, when we have a small cut on our finger, to apply med or not is up to us, u can take the risk of waiting for it to get better by itself or u can do something to prevent it for getting worst. to me, i rather to have prevention n not getting the whole shipment shrew up bcos of just few fishes that ve been hurt during the transportation. pls do remember, after the selection of fishes, those have been selected have to go thru a very stressful journey with empty stomach for atleat 3-4 days, we have to make sure the fishes with the best protection n keep them in top form b4 shipping them out.

im poor in english, just trying my best to express myself n hope u guys can understand my broken english,thx.

best rgds,
forrest.

Thank you Forrest for sharing that with us.

I know you are one of if not the most respected suppliers on the forum. Hearing this from you makes me feel much better.

I enjoy looking at all your awesome fish you send month after month.

One last thing, your English is much, much better than my Malaysian.

Thanks again,
Kraig

[LizStreithorst]

hi all,
just my very own opinion here about the uses of acrifanvin. i use acrifanvin every time after i select fishes n mix them into tanks. reason,they maybe scratches or wounds on the fishes during selection of fishes. as an exporter, i cant afford to wait till i see the fishes not doing well after selection bcos of the wounds or scratches.

this is just an example, when we have a small cut on our finger, to apply med or not is up to us, u can take the risk of waiting for it to get better by itself or u can do something to prevent it for getting worst. to me, i rather to have prevention n not getting the whole shipment shrew up bcos of just few fishes that ve been hurt during the transportation. pls do remember, after the selection of fishes, those have been selected have to go thru a very stressful journey with empty stomach for atleat 3-4 days, we have to make sure the fishes with the best protection n keep them in top form b4 shipping them out.

im poor in english, just trying my best to express myself n hope u guys can understand my broken english,thx.

best rgds,
forrest.

Thanks for your excellent explaination. Having another well respected exporter state the reasons for occasional medication helps us over here better understand the issue.

[wadewc]

hi all,
just my very own opinion here about the uses of acrifanvin. i use acrifanvin every time after i select fishes n mix them into tanks. reason,they maybe scratches or wounds on the fishes during selection of fishes. as an exporter, i cant afford to wait till i see the fishes not doing well after selection bcos of the wounds or scratches.

this is just an example, when we have a small cut on our finger, to apply med or not is up to us, u can take the risk of waiting for it to get better by itself or u can do something to prevent it for getting worst. to me, i rather to have prevention n not getting the whole shipment shrew up bcos of just few fishes that ve been hurt during the transportation. pls do remember, after the selection of fishes, those have been selected have to go thru a very stressful journey with empty stomach for atleat 3-4 days, we have to make sure the fishes with the best protection n keep them in top form b4 shipping them out.

im poor in english, just trying my best to express myself n hope u guys can understand my broken english,thx.

best rgds,
forrest.

Thanks for taking the time and explaining this to us Forrest. I have many tanks with your fish and I am very proud of them all. Especially my whites ] I am not as experienced as many of you but I do understand for the care and quarinteen the fish are put through by Forrest and others is why we have so many healthy discus.

Kraig,

Nice meeting you at the show in Dallas. I enjoyed talking to you. Good luck with your Buisness.

Wade

[April]

congrats on the new sponsorhip from a fellow sponsor.
i would just like to say..that i get fish from forrest..and if and when he does use acriflavine..there is definitely no weakness or immune issues when i get them..or kenny. strong..eating right away..swimming right away..and grow well .
im sure with tony tan,, or forrest..or whoever..they try to bring the best quality and health to the sponsors on simply..as they know their fish are on display and are on exhibit at simplydiscus.
wade said it well..