Micro Bubbles

[roclement]

Hello everyone!

With the cold weather upon us I have started to run into a common problem (for me at least) for people doing water changes straight from the tap. Micro Bubbles!

A long time ago I had issues with microbubbles and the best answer I received is that due to the extreme difference in temperature between the incoming tap water (very cold) and the house water (hot) mixed expedites the release off gasses, chlorine, etc thus creating the micro bubbles.

Now the bubbles are a pain for adult fish but can kill fry since they can get attached to gills so eliminating them is a must! I have come up with two solutions (other than aging the water), one if slowing down the flow of water and the other is running it through a home made filter.

I use a two liter soda bottle, cut the large end(bottom), fill it with sponges and run the water through it from the top end into the tank, works great and no more micro bubbles!

What I would like with this thread is two fold. First to find out what causes micro bubbles, is it indeed the release of gases? Second, how do you deal with it?

Thanks guys!

Rodrigo

[William Palumbo]

Hi Rod. I too get tons of super-saturated water from my tap as well. Lake Michigan gets COLD! Not sure what causes it, but I believe many years ago, Joe Gargas wrote a article about it explaining what causes it, and the effect on fish. I never noticed any problem with it. Maybe I'm just lucky. 20+ years of just mixing the temp at the sink, and running it thru a Python, is pretty much all I do. Maybe now I've jinxed myself!...Bill

[discuscraze]

I use a two liter soda bottle, cut the large end(bottom), fill it with sponges and run the water through it from the top end into the tank, works great and no more micro bubbles!

You would have to hold the soda bottle some how ... what if it takes 20 min to fill 1 tank?

I was thinking of a setup using pre-filters from RO filter. They have whole house filters so there has to be something that can be used and will be fast.

[DiscusOnly]

You would have to hold the soda bottle some how ... what if it takes 20 min to fill 1 tank?

I was thinking of a setup using pre-filters from RO filter. They have whole house filters so there has to be something that can be used and will be fast.

I am pretty sure Rod has the hose screw into the soda bottle.

discuscraze: Remember you asked me about the big foam on the one side of my tank? Not only is the intake tube and the heater are placed there. That's where I refill the tap water. It goes from there to the other side of the tank via the foam or the filter. I get very little bubble this way.

[roclement]

Whatever the method it has to be in line after the water gets mixed but a pressure filter will slow down the water flow tremendously. With the coke bottle the flow doesn't slow at all, if you can figure a way to hold it in the tank, I just lower the lid and it's all good.

Rodrigo

[discuscraze]

I have seen Van's setup and now understand the dual purpose of the foam.

Rod, if possible, please post a picture to help me understand. Also what kind of foam did you use?

[roclement]

I have to make a new one since every year i loose the previous years! I use any filter foam I have around, and even filter floss if I have it handy.

Rodrigo

[ockyra215]

I have micro bubbles also when filling from the tap.Its a pain in the A..
But I will try the soda bottle foam set up!

[Jennie]

My water is getting allot of micro bubbles now that it's getting colder. What, if any affect does this have on the overall health of adult fish?? This will be my first winter with discus

[scottishbloke]

Rod- I am experiencing this same problem also, even though it takes a full 20 minutes to refill my 90g straight from the tap using one of those 1/2-inch white potable water boat hoses. Some of my fish are very mad at me right now, as they have lost part of their slime coat from the bubbles Do you have a picture of your soda bottle hose attachment (which sounds like a brilliant idea) that you could post so myself and others can see what it is supposed to look like? I want to try and make one before the next water change.

Thanks,

Colin

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Hello everyone!

With the cold weather upon us I have started to run into a common problem (for me at least) for people doing water changes straight from the tap. Micro Bubbles!

A long time ago I had issues with microbubbles and the best answer I received is that due to the extreme difference in temperature between the incoming tap water (very cold) and the house water (hot) mixed expedites the release off gasses, chlorine, etc thus creating the micro bubbles.

Now the bubbles are a pain for adult fish but can kill fry since they can get attached to gills so eliminating them is a must! I have come up with two solutions (other than aging the water), one if slowing down the flow of water and the other is running it through a home made filter.

I use a two liter soda bottle, cut the large end(bottom), fill it with sponges and run the water through it from the top end into the tank, works great and no more micro bubbles!

What I would like with this thread is two fold. First to find out what causes micro bubbles, is it indeed the release of gases? Second, how do you deal with it?

Thanks guys!

Rodrigo

The micro bubbles are because of the cold tap water coming into the house which is warmer. The colder the water, the more of a gas it can hold (N, O2, CO2, etc). The warmer it gets, the less it can hold. Because the water warms up, it can no longer hold those gases in solution and releases them as bubbles. Now this doesnt happen while the water is in the pipes, even if it is heated because the water supply is under pressure. When you have 40+ psi in a water supply line, gases can become super saturated and still be in solution. As soon as that super saturated water comes out of the hose/pipe, boom....instant bubbles.

Under ideal situations, the water is aged to prevent this from ever being an issue. But in a point of use type situation, there isnt a whole lot that can be done, aside from a DIY degasser of sorts. Even then, it is no guarantee it will fix your issue because you dont know what gases are coming out of solution, and at what saturation levels they were at while under pressure.

-Ryan

[brewmaster15]

The micro bubbles are because of the cold tap water coming into the house which is warmer. The colder the water, the more of a gas it can hold (N, O2, CO2, etc). The warmer it gets, the less it can hold. Because the water warms up, it can no longer hold those gases in solution and releases them as bubbles. Now this doesnt happen while the water is in the pipes, even if it is heated because the water supply is under pressure. When you have 40+ psi in a water supply line, gases can become super saturated and still be in solution. As soon as that super saturated water comes out of the hose/pipe, boom....instant bubbles.

Under ideal situations, the water is aged to prevent this from ever being an issue. But in a point of use type situation, there isnt a whole lot that can be done, aside from a DIY degasser of sorts. Even then, it is no guarantee it will fix your issue because you dont know what gases are coming out of solution, and at what saturation levels they were at while under pressure.

-Ryan

Agree 100 % with Ryan here. The only thing I'll add is that whether its a stress factor or not often depends on the volume of water you change... I have to age my water... for fry...no question there or I WILL lose them...been there done that....but I can easily change 25%-30% of my water from tap directly and non-fry are generally fine. ....do more than that and I stress them out....

If you are dealing with gas in the water you should take some pH readings ( out of the tap verses aged 12-24 hrs with aeration)... if the gas is CO2 you risk not only the stress of the gas...but wide pH swings... For example here I have a well.. lots of CO2... my water is on the average 6.5 out of the tap due largely to the gas... off gassed by aging and my water is a whopping 7.8 so to do large wcs without aerating is to subject the fish in my case to a daily swing of pH 6.5- 7.8...not exactly ideal IMO!

hth,
al

[tcyiu]

Just to add to Ryan and Al's points:

Liquids dissolves more gases under high pressure, and low temperature.

The most common, everyday example of this bit of chemistry trivia is soda pop. On the store shelf, it is all liquid with no bubbles. As soon as you open the cap to release the pressure, you can see the soda start to bubble.

Now imagine soda pop going through your gills or your nose. Anyone who has shot soda out through a nostril (because a friend told you a joke at an inopportune time) will know it hurts like heck.

That is one good reason why the water should be degassed. Al points to another good one which is release of carbon dioxide will change the pH of the water.

I agitate my water in a holding tank until the water is clear and no longer milky white. If I were to introduce tap water into the main tank, I would look for bubbles that might form on the tank walls. This would indicate that there are still dissolved gases turning back into bubbles.

Tim

[Jennie]

I'm wondering if I just stick some porat sponge up in the end of the python if that will work on degassing the water better?? I'll give a try and see how it works, let you know and test up the waters ph as well.

[brewmaster15]

Give it a shot Jennie,but it most likely won't work well....what you would need is a degassing tower of some sort... like this...

http://www.forbesgroup.co.uk/section.php/7/0

but on a more appropriate scale....I'm sure with a little math and some good engineering a hobbyist could probably make one for their volume of water....but I haven't a clue on where to start....

-al