Nitrate filter

[SoCalDiscus.com]

Update: So far so good. The nitrates in my overstocked goldfish tank are holding around 20ppm (test strip) and outflow from Aquaripure is 0ppm nitrates and 0ppm nitrites (test strip). It is running at ~4 drops/second so it's "cleaning" 4-6 gallons of water a day, or about 30g a week or about a 100% WC every week if you buy into the idea that what it's doing is the equivalent of a WC.

I sent John at Aquaripure a rather long note asking about the biochemistry of what is actually occurring inside the Aquaripure, but haven't heard back yet. Really interested to find out.

Busy with work, travel and kids so did not shift to weekly water changes yet. I need to do that and see if I can maintain 10ppm or lower nitrates. Looked at prices for adult discus...wow...I better have this down to a science before getting into Discus. The last thing I need is $1000 worth of sick fish on my hands.

I also emailed Aquaripure last week and explained I owned a fish farm and was interested in their "Big Tuna" the largest one they have that apparently is built for 1,500 gallons (don't know if that's per day, per week or what). I expressed that I would buy the biggest one and try it out on my system plus in all honesty, if it was a good one I'd be endorsing it to everyone and would even resell for him but wanted to see some lab test results I could review first before the investment and compare to my own experiences once I got one but havn't got a reply back yet so the customer service in iteself is already scaring me to even give it a try.

I'm not trying to cut corners here like many of you aren't. I'm doing two (2) 100% water changes a day right now and want to increase the size and number of breeding tanks and show tank that I currently have but before I do that, I'm not interested in changing a thousand gallons a day. I'm not poor but damn....

I'd be very happy with just "cutting back" on the number of WC's if I could find a system(s) that would work effectively.

Back in the day some 20 years ago when I started up an aquarium company I had a number of nice Discus tanks that had no more than one 4-5" Discus per 40gallons and used a combo of wet/dry and a good big carbon canister filter system along with CO2 exchange for the heavily decorated tank full of live plants obviously a major key to removing nitrates naturally (live plants is the missing link to the bacteria cycle of Ammonia>Nitrite>Nitrate) but back then despite my far lower nitrate levels, we didn't know to change the water daily. As a result, I had beautiful discus that I kept healthy for many years HOWEVER I did notice all the time I had them they either never grew in size any larger than what I bought them at or it was very little. Another mistake unlearned back then was Discus needed much higher temperatures and I only kept my tanks about 74F so that could have been a factor also.

It's been that long for me since my last experiences with Discus and yep, I'm a noob again but looking for anyone using the Aquaripure or any other brand to see if they have had notable results they can share with us here? Please keep us all informed.....Please!

In the mean time, I'm setting up an auto dump/fill system off a RODI this week and the waste water will be flushed back to the garden. Something to help in the mean time.

[SoCalDiscus.com]

Build a turf algae scrubber (Google it), save yourself a bunch of money.

Tom

Speaking of what Tom said here, this raises a good point! Algae scrubbers were bit back in the day especially on marine tanks until they were replaced with a refugium where live macro and micro algae was grown to remove Nitrates (the one thing bacteria helped very little with). Most Discus owners are doing major water changes especially when they have bare tanks because there is little or no bacteria to remove Ammonia, and sponge filters only helps some to convert that to Nitrites. For what is converted from Nitrite to Nitrate, it's "Live Plants" that are missing from the equasion here and for a fraction of the money I would only "suggest" that some of you (myself included) try working with a freshwater refugium. I'll do some research on what pulls the most Nitrates out for us and one thing that "may be interesting to some" is that one of my biggest sellers when I was in the business was mangrove pods that can bought off ebay really cheap. Yes, mangroves are used in saltwater refugiums but they are brackish and live in freshwater also so they may work equally well with a good amount of other plants. What we need to find though are plants that tollerate high temperatures (maybe dwarf lillies???). An important thing to remember is lighting is required 24/7 for this to work because where as when photosynthesis takes place during lighting hours to remove nitrate, it also removes CO2 from the water and converts it to Oxygen. But, at night if you turn the lights off on the refugium, the opposite occurs and Oxygen is sucked up and converted to CO2 thus causing a dip in pH! This is harmfull to reef systems and I can see where the same caution should be with sensitive Discus.

There may be an equal solution of results of creating a freshwater refugium over a far more expensive nitrate system especially if you combine it with a autofill system of both auto dump and auto fill through a nice 5-6 stage RODI system. (LOOKS LIKE I'LL BE DOING SOME NERDY EXPERIMENTING NOW)...

Just Sayin'

[Poco]

Aquaripure is a one man show, at least it was when i was considering to buy (I didn't get one).

[Mxx]

Speaking of what Tom said here, this raises a good point! Algae scrubbers were bit back in the day especially on marine tanks until they were replaced with a refugium where live macro and micro algae was grown to remove Nitrates (the one thing bacteria helped very little with). Most Discus owners are doing major water changes especially when they have bare tanks because there is little or no bacteria to remove Ammonia, and sponge filters only helps some to convert that to Nitrites. For what is converted from Nitrite to Nitrate, it's "Live Plants" that are missing from the equasion here and for a fraction of the money I would only "suggest" that some of you (myself included) try working with a freshwater refugium. I'll do some research on what pulls the most Nitrates out for us and one thing that "may be interesting to some" is that one of my biggest sellers when I was in the business was mangrove pods that can bought off ebay really cheap. Yes, mangroves are used in saltwater refugiums but they are brackish and live in freshwater also so they may work equally well with a good amount of other plants. What we need to find though are plants that tollerate high temperatures (maybe dwarf lillies???). An important thing to remember is lighting is required 24/7 for this to work because where as when photosynthesis takes place during lighting hours to remove nitrate, it also removes CO2 from the water and converts it to Oxygen. But, at night if you turn the lights off on the refugium, the opposite occurs and Oxygen is sucked up and converted to CO2 thus causing a dip in pH! This is harmfull to reef systems and I can see where the same caution should be with sensitive Discus.

There may be an equal solution of results of creating a freshwater refugium over a far more expensive nitrate system especially if you combine it with a autofill system of both auto dump and auto fill through a nice 5-6 stage RODI system. (LOOKS LIKE I'LL BE DOING SOME NERDY EXPERIMENTING NOW)...

Just Sayin'

There are a plethora of ways of course to use plants to remove nitrates. It could be in a refugium/sump, in the display tank, or it could be via emergent plants which have only their roots in the water. Emergent plants have a significant advantage to submerged plants, as they can utilize oxygen and carbon dioxide from the air much more efficiently than they can underwater, and therefore can grow faster and remove more nitrates while not destabilizing your CO2 concentration/pH. Floating plants can typically utilize atmospheric gases and therefore can grow very fast as well.

As for which plants, it can really be as simple as java moss and/or duckweed, it just helps to have something hardy and fast growing and give it loads of light. Or you could utilize more decorative plants in your display tank. My own intentions are to utilize Philodendrons which are rooted into a compartment at the back of the tank and are trained to grow up the wall behind and above the tank to provide that added 'jungle atmosphere'. I just wish I had a window or skylight there to give them sunlight instead of having to provide artificial.

Plants remove a lot more byproducts of animal metabolism than just nitrates by the way, all of which further helps the health and stability of the ecosystem.

[Tommy Saville]

Don't know if you have them in USA, but the Pozzani NR600 filter removes 100% nitrates at 3 litres per minute flow rate. Each cartridge treats 600 litres. I have one fitted to my coldwater system in the kitchen. I use it to fill a 100-litre water barrel for water changes.

[DonInLA]

Has anyone tried "Nitrate Reductor 400"? Much cheaper.

I got an AquaMedic (AM) NR Blue a couple months ago and have been playing with it in a 75Gal planted tank. I think this is the name for the successor to the NR 400. I have the same goal as others here - frequent water changes are a HUGE pain in the butt and just not feasible for me: a) i have no way/space/time to prep or store 30 or 40 gals of filtered/prepared low-Ph soft water at 83 degrees F. b) my tap water is 10ppm nitrates, 65 degrees F, Ph 8.0, GH 10, KH 7. c) I don't have the time to do WCs, even weekly. maybe once a month. I have a busy work schedule and a family. and a bad back :-). Maybe I'm unrealistic but we'll have to see....

I have a CO2 system with controller (Milwaukee), an Eheim Professional filter, small UV sterilizer, inline heater, and 4x40w of F40 fluorescent lighting. I bought some substrate material for the plants and have been using fertilizer tabs under the roots monthly. Plants seem pretty healthy and are growing. Original leaves on the Amazons are lacing out but new leaves are growing in.

I looked at the Aquaripure but it seemed to be a one-man-show. Aquamedic is a good sized company and I got the filter on sale at Petco :-) so I took that route. Tech support has been pretty good so far - they've sent me free replacement parts, and they answer the phone and emails.

My goal is to eventually raise discus in this planted tank (!) but since they seem to be about $40 per fish for juveniles I didn't want to get 6 or 8 and murder them immediately :-). So I've started with some $0.29 feeder goldfish, a couple of dwarf plecos, and some nerite snails for algae. All are doing well so far. Some green and brown algae initially but the Nerites and Plecos and low nitrates seem to be keeping this under control. I have to sponge off the front of the tank about every 10 days.

I started using the AM (hooked up to the output of the Eheim with a T) without an ORP probe, but it was a PITA to manage because I had to keep measuring the Nitrate levels on the output to figure out what was going on, plus the drip rate out of the filter kept drifting and wouldn't hold even for 6 hours using a needle valve on the input to the AM. So i splurged for the AM ORP probe that fits the filter and am building a DIY control system using a microcontroller called a Raspberry Pi and a solenoid valve to control the water flow based on the ORP reading. (I am a software engineer).

The jury is still out because I am still at a point where the ORP in the filter is positive (+50) rather than in the range of -200mv. I went through the business of feeding the filter with Denimar powder to get it going but it is not clear that the Deniballs are really working yet. Plus I've had to open the thing up a few times to change the pump/cover and then install the probe, which introduces oxygen and the ORP goes up to 185 which apparently means the bacteria are dead and you have to start the whole process over.

My tank nitrates are about 1ppm but I'm noticing that organics must be building up in the water since I am seeing bubbles where my surface extractor pulls water into the Eheim. I haven't done any water changes yet so perhaps I need to bite the bullet and do one.

It does seem reasonable that just reducing Nitrates is not the whole story - there must be other organics in the water that need to be removed or kept under control? Is there any solution for this besides water changes?

I'd love to hear from anyone with a similar situation - discus, planted tank, nitrate filter...

Don

[Mxx]

It does seem reasonable that just reducing Nitrates is not the whole story - there must be other organics in the water that need to be removed or kept under control? Is there any solution for this besides water changes?

I'd love to hear from anyone with a similar situation - discus, planted tank, nitrate filter...

IMHO, you're quite correct in that nitrates are not the entire picture, there is a lot more to good water quality and chemistry than that, and nitrates should be one of the more easier parameters to deal with. I've been (trying to) research this in-depth myself but it's actually difficult to find good information about this and I've been reviewing reefkeeping advice for relevant info. You may wish to peruse my own earlier thread on the topic, for a range of different opinions. http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...-Tank-Proposal

I believe there are potentially organic acids, salts, sugars, phosphates, and potentially various other dissolved organic compounds in play in our systems. Organic acids should be buffered against with minerals such as dolomite or packaged buffers in order to prevent gradual acidification. Phosphates and a number of other organic compounds can be dealt with through chemical filtration, ie carbon, phosphate remover, purigen, etc. Another approach would be to use an ozonizer which will reduce some compounds to very simply forms through oxidization.

Plants are of course the natural and ecological approach to dealing with these, and I suspect that they should be able to absorb and utilize most metabolic byproducts from animals as their fertilizer. This is the low-tech or natural tank approach. A heavily stocked tank however may require a high density of plants and a fairly high lighting intensity to keep up with the waste. Adding detrivores such as apple snails and other snails would help break down and digest and detritus into usable forms. Floating plants would be an easy means to regularly export these nutrients by thinning out every few weeks.

You nevertheless should be careful that your TDS don't climb too high regardless.

This is what I've gleaned through research, and I've not yet verified through practical experience or rigorous testing for that matter certainly.

[DonInLA]

Update on my AquaMedic NR Blue (and thanks for the tip about a TDS meter)-

The reactor finally seemed to be working- ORP level went down to -175 in the filter (I control this via a Raspberry Pi microcomputer and a solenoid valve and some code i wrote that runs on the PI and that turns the valve on/off depending on the ORP level).

Nitrates in the tank were zero, plants seemed healthy, minimal algae, all other tests were good. So last week I finally gave away the goldfish and installed 7 x 4" Discus - they're still acclimating but seem healthy and yesterday really started eating the frozen bloodworms.

5 days later, Nitrates are now around 15 and rising slowly. The main issue is that if i set the controller to maintain an ORP level in the filter around -175 or -150, the flow through the AquaMedic filter seems way too low to do any good. It is supposed to run around 1L/hour but I think I'm getting maybe 5% of this. Its hard to measure exactly.

This filter model is rated for this size tank so I'm not sure why I can't get the flow rate up. My understanding is that in order for the bacteria in the filter to work, you need to keep the ORP level (essentially dissolved oxygen) between -25 and -250, and they recommended a mid-range value. I will try raising the ORP level in stages to see what happens to the flow rate versus the nitrates in the output water.

BTW the reason I went with the Aquamedic versus the Aquaripure was that
a) the Aquamedic has a port for an ORP probe, which means that you can control the flow rate through the filter automatically, which should prevent disasters as have been reported by others. I have alarms set up so the controller shuts down the flow and sends me an email when anything is out of limits (advantages of being a software engineer :-)).
b) the Aquamedic has "Deniballs" which are supposed to feed the bacteria and last for a year - so I can go on vacation and not worry about feeding the filter by hand.

So the jury is out... My goal was to use the combination of plants and Nitrate reactor to reduce water changes to a level I could manage.

My other issue is that my tap water has 10ppm nitrates, so water changes are not as effective as usual. I'm looking at an RO filter - seems like this is the only solution.

Comments welcomed...

Don

[DonInLA]

Another update - I'm unable to get the flow rate through the Aquamedic (NR Blue with Deniballs) to more than about 20mL per hour - which is 5% of the claimed performance. I'm controlling the flow rate with an ORP probe and a valve on the input to the reactor. My controller maintains the ORP level at -175mV (the recommended level). I've been going back and forth with the Aquamedic customer support guys on this, who keep telling me to be patient. I've tried lowering the ORP setpoint to -150 but it doesn't seem to make much difference. I'm controlling the filter via a DIY microcomputer (Raspberry Pi) and recording the data in a database every 10 minutes, so I can graph the results over time to see trends. I don't see any upward trend in the flow rates, which is very disappointing.

Either I'm doing something wrong, or this thing just doesn't work as advertised.

My next experiment is to start injecting food (they sent me some Denimar tablets) into the filter again. The whole idea of the Deniballs was that this shouldn't be necessary in the long term, but...

I've yet to find anyone else out there who is using this thing successfully - if anyone can point me to a forum where this product is reviewed, please let me know.

Don

[MSD]

Change your water every day or two like we all (most) do please, there are no shortcuts in life, or discus keeping.

[DonInLA]

Thats what I'm doing now given that the reactor is not working as advertised :-(. You are probably right, but I was hoping to at least reduce the frequency of the water changes.

[MSD]

Yeah, I went through that phase too and guess what, I am still changing water.

[Ken]

This article has a few different ways of dealing with nitrate using sulphur, the technology was first used in the removal of nitrates from public drinking water, then to a public aquarium them to personal saltwater aquariums. http://mars.reefkeepers.net/USHomePa...Denitrator.htm