Zero Water Change Planted Discus Tank Proposal???

[ynot]

Hi Mxx , I found a little info on Phosphates for you. Phosphates in the Aquarium
All living organism contain phosphorus. Phosphorus is an important element of life as a component for cell membranes, as an energy source, and for other bio-chemical processes.

Phosphorus is a very reactive component making it readily absorbed and generally available in aquatic environments as either an organic or inorganic phosphate.

Phosphates (PO4) can be created within the closed aquatic system or imported from the outside.

Phosphate as a by-product of mineralization of dead matter such as plants, bacteria, feces, uneaten food, fish slime etc. are all internal contributors.

Dead plant material or rotting food particles settle either on the substrate or within the filter. Rinsing filter materials and vacuuming the gravel at every water change can significantly reduce potential phosphate accumulation from these internal sources.

Replacement water can also contain phosphate, sometimes surprisingly high concentrations, even if RO units are in use.

Additives such as pH stabilizers or carbon, and frozen fish food are potential external phosphate sources. Avoiding phosphate containing products as well as testing of the replacement water for phosphates can further help prevent accumulation. If in doubt, additives, carbon, pH buffers, and the water should be tested and replaced if necessary.

Prohibiting phosphates from entering the water or from forming within the aquarium is the best safeguard from the harmful consequences of accumulating phosphates.

Inorganic phosphate or orthophosphate is the soluble form. It is readily available and quickly absorbed by plants. Organic phosphate refers to phosphate that is part of a cell structure or organically bound in other ways. Organic phosphate must be broken down by bacteria in order to become soluble orthophosphate.

The biggest source of organic phosphate is fish food. 5 grams of flake food can increase the organic phosphate level by 0.4 ppm. The filters and substrate have to be cleaned regularly before the organic phosphate is mineralized to inorganic orthophosphate.

Some marine and especially reef aquarium set-ups rely on less frequent water changes. The reason for one is a delicately balanced filtration based on live rock and/or the need for nutrient supplementation for coral growth, among others. To compensate for less frequent water changes a protein skimmer is attached, which will remove many waste particles that would otherwise be broken down to soluble orthophosphates.

Unfortunately, protein skimmers do not work in freshwater aquariums and can not be substituted for less frequent water changes. More than 90% of the phosphate contained in the aquarium is organic phosphate. The common test kit measures the inorganic soluble orthophosphate, not the organic form or the total phosphate content.

Generally the measurable phosphate level should be below 0.05 ppm.

Planted tanks have the advantage that plants are capable of storing and consuming phosphates. Plants can only take up in-organic orthophosphate, thus reducing the levels. Saltwater tanks can imitate that by planting macro algae into a refugium or sump.

In reef aquariums Kalkwasser can just about eliminate phosphate. At a pH above 8.9 phosphate precipitates in the water as insoluble phosphate and flocks out. Marine aquariums kept above a pH of 8.4 allow some phosphate to be bound to rocks and substrate in an insoluble form. Nevertheless it will become soluble if the pH drops below 8.

In closing, phosphate can not be entirely removed from the aquarium since organic phosphate is constantly converted into in-organic soluble orthophosphate. Nevertheless, phosphates can be controlled with a good maintenance schedule aimed at keeping organic phosphates at a minimum.

[Mxx]

Fish of course ingest phosphates with their food, and need some phosphates. I wonder though what a detrimentally high level of phosphates might be though, as I assume that even with fish there is an upper level to that. Interesting to read that bacterial processes are necessary for converting organophosphates to inorganic phosphates, so some degree of biofiltration is necessary, even if you were trying to rely mainly upon plants to absorb phosphates.

[Mxx]

It's what I am doing and if you've read along on my build journal you know I'm sparing no expense in cost vs. automation and low maintenance.
The amount of plants needed to break down the waste of well stocked aquarium with fish the size and eating habits of discus would quickly get out of hand.

I've been watching your journal, thanks. Most decent planted tanks have nitrate and phosphate levels of zero even if they are generously stocked and fed. So many planted tank enthusiasts are actually dosing those regularly, especially if they're running strong lighting and CO2. If you're doing what most would consider to be overfeeding, then that might be another thing however. Aiming to have a lot of floating plants getting explosively out of hand might be a good approach, being that it'd be easy to net out a bucketful each week.

[brewmaster15]

Somethings I think people need to think about...

* Fish per area water in both a tank verse au natural
* Growth rates of said fish in both a tank an au natural and the Foods ingested.
* Adult specimens and what is acceptible.. In a tank its one thing, in the wild..its another. The tanks owner maybe looking for specimens that are large, showy, thick and robust...In au natural... The fish just needs to be fit enough to reproduce...after that it really doesn't matter.

Theres always room for improvement in fish keeping skills and technology...However, duplicating nature is something we can't do...its why its so critical to preserve the complex biological systems that already exist.

A tank of fish will never be on par with a natural system.. whether you believe that system to be made by God, or Evolution.. both would be a tad too complex for us duplicate,imo.

Technology is a wonderful thing and with it we can purify water with sufficient equipment and processes...we do it everyday in municipal treatment plants. But its not necessarily scaleable to a fish tank and whats out there that may work is expensive.

hey I have a better idea... shameless plug... http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?104050
save some money on your hobby and then buy all the high-tech equipment you want with it. or just save some money and Go DO A WATER CHANGE..

-al

[ynot]

Hi Al , very well said. I'v just got back into the hobby this past year after about 27 years. And I have to say I don't remember it being quite this expensive. LOL but I guess thats everything these days. And yes Al I have been thinking about a premium membership but I will have to wait until I get back from the Philippines next month. I appreciate all the good information here especially from all the experienced keepers here at SD.
Thanks,
Tony

[rcomeau]

Mxx, as you know, this thread was started over 2 years ago. Have you been maintaining a discus tank that long? Is it planted? Have you been changing the water? How are the discus doing? What did you learn from experience the last two years? Are you close to the goal of keeping a discus tank with minimal maintenance? Please be clear about what you accomplished in 2 years to provide a credible baseline for the constructive considerations that you continue to suggest. Thanks

I am anxious to hear about progress given that this thread has given me a clear idea of the difference between a tank and a river. How much water and plants per fish in a river? Thousands? It is about 10 gallons/fish in a tank. When I watch how much a discus eats each day I can't help but think that it is putting a lot of waste in its 10 gallon share. Cleaning that amount of waste per day in that 10 gallons without water changes would be an incredible break through indeed.

So by now, please, credible or incredible?

[Skip]

Rco.. he has no discus tank.. to date.. he has been planning and then move money for other priorities. .
So for now.. this is all jus theory