Zero Water Change Planted Discus Tank Proposal???

[Hogman]

(If you’re smelling Hydrogen Sulfide then that simply means that the anaerobic bacteria need slightly more water flow).

Where are you getting these conclusions from? Anaerobic bacteria do not O2 to survive. It is doubtfull that you will produce "Hydrogen Sulfide" unless its already there. I predict you will be operating a septic tank and producing methane gas. I too, wish you all the best with this project

[roclement]

This is a matter of cost/work/benefit to me...in order to achieve a "balanced system" without performing WC, you will need to spend so much money replenishing minerals, and on filtration that it makes it un realistic. Sure it can be done but again, if you are willing to spend more money and time in your filtration system than on your display tank/stock. Why do you think every public aquarium in the planet perfomr daily/regular water changes in their display tanks? Don't you think they would wnat the benefit of not hanving to perform WC?

Want a tank mith no WC...easy! Tie in an RO/DI unit to your tank with a booster pump and have your water run through it and then back into the tank, simple right? Now make sure the volume of water going through your unit is at least enough to move at least 100% of the volume of your tank per day, most likely 300% or so in a planted, stocked tank. Now make sure you can figure out how to re-constitute the water automaticaly so you don't end up with no TDS reading water going back into your tank, lastly make sure you exchange the membrane and DI powder as needed, maybe once a week with continuos use?

Now sit back and enjoy!

Rodrigo

[scottthomas]

Pretty much what I was trying to say. Although I am starting a planted tank this weekend so I understand the attraction of having both disus and planted aquarium.

[Mxx]

Where are you getting these conclusions from? Anaerobic bacteria do not O2 to survive. It is doubtfull that you will produce "Hydrogen Sulfide" unless its already there. I predict you will be operating a septic tank and producing methane gas. I too, wish you all the best with this project

It was from my research on denitrator filters the other evening. Google denitrator filter and look for the aquaworldaquarium.com article. And Aquaripure sell a filter such as that described in the article. And some of it was from another denitrator filter's set-up guide which I can't seem to relocate the link to again. Denitrator filters can be used on fresh or saltwater. It seems they'd greatly benefit a bare-bottom discus tank as well, if they can keep the nitrates from spiking daily. Doesn't anyone here happen to be using them??

[John_Nicholson]

Ok we got. You are smarter then the rest of the world, so quit talking about it and get it done. Work your magic and post pictures of your progress. I just ask that you plese do it in an honest manner and do it for the long term. Of course I say this because I am pretty sure how this will end. At first it will work great, then it will tail off, and then it will crash. When it crashes you will probably just disappear.....that is what always happens when type of situation arises.

Good luck.

-john

[Mxx]

It's certainly an interesting idea, but as many have already commented it's be theorized. Since I am no where the expert on this, I'd just like to give my two cents on your overflow. I would be concerned with the return flow coming up in one of your overflows. I think this would limit your ability to get some good directional flow on the bottom of your substrate where food and feces is going to eventually accumulate, especially around the base of your plants.

I have a trapazoid overflow in the center of my 180 gal with two return lines coming back from the sump, both on individual pumps. Each pump is rated at 350 gph. I have the nozzels for the returns on each side of the overflow, pointed to each forward corner of the tank. It creates a flow that pushes the water in a circular direction on each side, eventually back us tpwards the overflow. It's done a really great job of keeping the bottom of my tank clear of debris, but don't get me wrong, it's not perfect. As for canisters, I'd rather shut my aquarium down than ever have to deal with another one of those things. Keep in mind, that's just my preference.

I understand your desire to not want to do water changes, I work a lot and it limits the time I have to my tank. If you're going to do this, I'd abandon the idea of initially trying to raise juvies in it. I'm doing my best to get water changes in where I can and keeping them fed, but I'm seeing poor results with mine. I'm learning I can't keep on top of this like I would like to. I think I'm just going to buy ful grown fish from now on. If you decide to raise them in the set up, I'd try a couple in your experiment tank first, I'd hate to see you ruin 10-12 fish if it doesn't work the way you want.

Anyway, best of luck. Keep us posted!

In terms of return flow and current, I'd also described that I'd have another return flow pipe along the bottom back edge of the tank, with holes drilled along its length. This should shoot some current across the top of the substrate bed and create a slow upwelling current up the front of the tank, which would help in suspending food so that it doesn't sink to the bottom quite as quickly. With the other overflow return at one end, and the intake at the other, this should supposedly create sort of a slow spiralling barrel of current throughout the length of the tank. That doesn't create quite as much current across the hairgrass carpet as I'd ideally wish to achieve to keep it looking clean, but the foreground is a difficult place to be able to discreetly focus the current upon. In your experience would this sort of a current setup at 1000 gph work well for a 200-300 gallon planted discus tank?

Interesting comment about your canisters though... I wonder if at the end of it I'd be better off creating a bio-medium sump partition the length of the back wall instead.

What do you think might be causing the poor results with your discus though? Accumulating nitrates, or perhaps the mysterious growth-inhibiting-hormones referred to in places? Do you happen to heavy planting in your tank? Or carbon filtration which is changed weekly?

[Mxx]

i had my 120 gal tank on this kind of setup for a year for experiment and i say be prepared for a lot of trial and errors and might as well tell your juvies goodbye once you release them in the tank. once the setup is aged(plants rooted and water flow paved their path) everything will become easy... for you but not your discus. ph will linger at 5 or below. i tried raising juvies and adults in there, wild and domestics, and i sum it up as a very expensive experiment. heavy toll on juvies, almost zero on domestics, those that survived were stunts or became deformed on their fins and gill plates. adult domestics tend to get sick easy on this setup. adult wild performed a little better(made my heckel pair spawned, unfortunately i was a novice... fry only lasted a day of free swimming). now the longest i can keep my tank without changing water is 2 weeks, with a huge water change after that. if it goes beyond that without a water change you might end up browsing on the sickness/disease section here. hope this help you a bit. i'll be glad to know how yours will fare.

ejay

Thanks for sharing your unfortunate experience, which is perhaps helpful. Can you relate a bit more though? Do you happen to know exactly why yours would have been stunted or deformed though? Do you happen to know what your nitrate levels typically were? It seems that a Ph that low would adversely affect your tank's biological filtration, as well as plant growth. Did you try anything to buffer the Ph upwards, such as the old add a touch of crushed coral technique? Did your set-up have dense planting and activated carbon filtration changed weekly?

[roclement]

It was from my research on denitrator filters the other evening. Google denitrator filter and look for the aquaworldaquarium.com article. And Aquaripure sell a filter such as that described in the article. And some of it was from another denitrator filter's set-up guide which I can't seem to relocate the link to again. Denitrator filters can be used on fresh or saltwater. It seems they'd greatly benefit a bare-bottom discus tank as well, if they can keep the nitrates from spiking daily. Doesn't anyone here happen to be using them??

For whatever it's worth I think this is Tito posting...

In any case, every filter that has been marketed in the last century claims to eliminate the need for water changes, so best of luck! Last post in this thread for me...

Rodrigo

[scottthomas]

For whatever it's worth I think this is Tito posting...

lol. I already mentioned that but after further reading the writing style is more thought out...

[2wheelsx2]

yikes.. thats like NEVER FLUSHING and trying to filter toilet water and saying.. look.. i can still drink it!!!!! haahaa...

You know that's what they do on the space station right? They don't flush the water out into space. They reprocess the urine.

I don't have an opinion either way and think it would be an interesting experiment. The science behind what the OP is doing is also not new and have been tried and true. However, they may just not be appropriate for growing discus properly, that's all.

[Skip]

For whatever it's worth I think this is Tito posting...

In any case, every filter that has been marketed in the last century claims to eliminate the need for water changes, so best of luck! Last post in this thread for me...

Rodrigo

lol. I already mentioned that but after further reading the writing style is more thought out...

yeah.. TITO. didn't use words this big.. NOR did he RAMBLE ON.. blah blah blah.. my A.D.D. kicks in reading some his posts..

You know that's what they do on the space station right? They don't flush the water out into space. They reprocess the urine.

I don't have an opinion either way and think it would be an interesting experiment. The science behind what the OP is doing is also not new and have been tried and true. However, they may just not be appropriate for growing discus properly, that's all.

i concur.. probably not best for Growing discus.. maybe Catfish

[roundfishross]

if he makes it through the ecology of the planted aquarium he may be permanently impaired. I couldnt do it personally!!

[Mxx]

Mxx, I hear you on the desire to try to avoid WC's period. In my experience with Discus (a lot less than some of the folks replying here), I am not convinved it's possible to create a healthy environment for Discus without frequent water changes. I can see how the fish respond if I wind up not siphoning off the bottom as frequently as I should. For most of us on the forum, we can look at the fish and see if something is not looking right. And the first precaution when that something pops up is to be very aggressive on the WC's. In many cases, that can help (and in most cases, the fish were susceptible to the disease from poor husbandry or too many missed WC's in the first place).

I can not comment on the specific water chemistry parameter changes that happen in a water change. But I think that's really what you are trying to get to: what gets removed in the WC and how can you create a filter/ natural ecosystem balance to reproduce it without the WC. Did I net this out correctly?

I think it's a really interesting topic, and I am eager to see the results. A few ideas to share:

1) Is there a way to set up a control tank? Maybe the same size, stocking, plants, light, feeding, co2, etc but with regular/ frequent water changes? I think this should provide a really good comparison and help you confirm whether the tank with zero WC's is really thriving.

2) I have an automated water change system for my tank. It changes about 80 gallons/ day on a total volume of about 140 gallons. It is 100% automated - I don't touch a thing. The display tank (which is pretty heavily stocked) is upstairs and the sump, where the water change system is set up, is in the basement. In addition to the 80 gallons/ day, I also siphon off the bottom of the display tank every other day or so (takes about 3 minutes). The tank has a few potted plants, but no substrate (I actually started by transforming a planted tank into a discus tank and wound up swapping out the substrate and removing the plants with the exception of a few that are now in pots). In addition to the daily automated changes, usually on the weekends, I change more water. I don't have to kill myself with these changes, though, because I have the automated system (which I can use the change more than 80 gallons/ day if I want).

I'd be happy to share details about it if you'd like to discuss. It's not very high tech, but is really failsafe and easy. I know that you are trying to avoid changes, and this has been a really good way for me to minimize the effort in keeping the tank and maximize time enjoying it. Might be something to consider as a type of compromise from a strict zero water change system.

BTW - have you kept reefs or other fish in addition to what you mentioned in your previous posts? I've had many types of freshwater fish plus actually had a full blown 90 gallon SPS plus LPS and Softies tank w @1,000 watts of light. I did a lot of research and learned through trial and error to finally get to a stable and healthy position with the reef tank and again with the discus tank. The research is really important, but there's no substitue for watching the animals (and plants). They will tell you whether the condiditons are good or not. A really great guy from GARF (Geothernal Aquatic Research Foundation)explained that to me when I first got into Reef tanks - it took a while, but I learned and grew to appreciate what he meant.

Interested to hear what else you learn in your research.

thx,
Ant

Hi Antpal,

Please do share the details of your automated water change system. I was thinking about building one into my set-up when I first started thinking about how to do a discus display tank. I'd considered using perhaps a 29 gallon tank underneath in the stand, (which could double as a quarantine/hospital tank if need be). With a plumbing line in and a direct drain out I could preheat, prefilter, and reconstitute the water there as necessary. I suppose a direct plumbing line to the tank, a direct drain out, and a water pump to and from the tank would allow me to just turn on the pump to cycle 29 fresh gallons in, and then 29 old gallons out, turn off the pump, and then open the drain. That still wouldn't deal with siphoning out mulm though, which would have to be done in a separate process. I thought there were several components there which were liable to fail and cause floods if not working perfectly though, so I'd certainly like to hear what your fail-safes are. I don't have a basement however, and can't give up extra space for large maintenance equipment though. So to achieve the required changes and volumes, maybe I would have had to have at least two 37 gallon plastic garbage cans under the tank, if not a third one for a biological filter sump as well...

But then the more I kept thinking it through, the more I started to wonder exactly what I would be accomplishing by doing all that. The influx of new water still would cause some sudden change in Ph and other parameters which could potentially be stress-inducing, and even 29 gallons a go isn't much of a water change out of 200 or 300 gallons or nearly the recommended amount. I suppose another alternative would be to have some sort of a constant slow fresh water line in, although I'd actually need two lines in, one passing through an RO filter, and another passing through a more standard drinking water filter, in order to bring the Ph and hardness down to a reasonable level, while reconstituting it by mixing it with non-RO water. That still sounds very complicated and risky in terms of equipment and possible points of failure!

When I kept a few tanks previously and was doing regular water changes with my Python or Automatic Aquarium Water Changer, I was always paranoid that the new water wasn't exactly the same temperature, that I couldn't pretreat the chlorine and chloramine, that the Ph was considerably different, and that in cold whether the new water was always saturated with dissolved nitrogen gas. And I couldn't help then wonder if I was doing any damage regularly by following the recommended water change regiment. I mean it's one thing for breeders in a greenhouse with concrete floors and floor drains to be performing daily water changes, but it's another case if I'd need to take over the kitchen sink, and was constantly spilling water on new oak floors as inevitably occurs!

I really can't set up a control tank, but if I had discus that achieved good growth without water changes then I suppose that would show the approach is viable. And I don't want to become any more obsessive about this hobby than I am already, I'm afraid. I have two young children and a demanding professional career to attend to as well, not to mention a marriage too which I'd best not neglect, (despite that she first made the mistake of asking if we could get discus after seeing them at a display tank at Kew Gardens)!

I've never had marine tanks, but plan to eventually try one at some point as well in the future. Incidentally, reading about the experiences of some marine aquarists is where I first came across examples of keeping tanks without ever doing water changes, and there seem to be a fair number of people doing that successfully, despite that reef fish and invertebrates are very sensitive to water parameters, stability, and nitrates.

[C3H6O3]

I have a planted 150gal discus aquarium. Before the plants were well-established and growing robustly, I had to change the water about 5 days a week. I could tell that after (at most) 2 days, the water wasn't as clear. Now, with great/established plant growth, I only do 2 water changes per week -- 45gal each time. Water is crystal-clear.

I might get by with only 1 change of about 60gal per week, if I didn't have freaking trumpet snails! I'm planning on getting some assassin snails, to see if I can control the trumpets. The plants do help immensely in filtering the water, though. I agree with what Rodrigo said about having to have a HUGE filter to have no water changes.

I have some clown loaches to control pond snail growth, as well as corys. These guys help get to the food that the discus can't reach in between plants. But, they also produce their own waste.

In short, I'm sure it's been stated in a few forms so far, an aquarium is an enclosed system -- the Amazon River isn't.

Change your water -- what looks good in paper hardly ever comes out like that in real life. Just ask the Philadelphia Eagles (14pt favorite against the Vikings -- lost to them by 10 pts). :-)

H

[antpal01]

Mxx, I have two kids and a wife, as well, so I understand and appreciate the need to try to balance time!!! :-)

With that said (and an expectation that it woudl take me a long time away from the family to document all of the specifics), please feel free to call me 973 449 3110 so I can share the details of my auto change system. I've got the water temp right and removed chlorine, so taken away those issues. (I really need to document and post what I have. Mind you it's not necessarily pretty or sophisticated, but it works.)

It soudns like one of the challenges you will have with an auto system is space. I think that there are ways to work through it, though, with some pipe snaking through the walls.

Also, in terms of a slow flow water changing system, there is a very easy, low plumbing one available - dialyseas. Here is the link. http://www.seavisions.com/prod02.htm My father in law had one on his 300 gallon reef - it worked pretty well. The freshwater models are $3k or $1k, so if you want the convenience it's a bit costly. This was kind of the inspiration for my system, although a lot less complex and much less expensive.

Look forward to chatting.

Thx,
Ant