Another discus that doesn't eat

[Dave B]

Seems to be lots of these threads lately.

Mine stopped eating around Christmas. He has been in a QT alone for 2 weeks now, getting heat, salt, and metro, and still won't eat bloodworms. Used to be a nice aggressive eater.

It's definitely getting worse. Visible stress bars, fins starting to look different (not fraying and also not clamped... but almost like thicker and clumped together at the top. Today I noticed what looks like a small open wound at the very end of his gill, a cm down from his mouth. He's breathing a bit harder now and the left side (with the wound) may be going a bit harder (I might be imagining that). I hadn't noticed this before but that doesn't mean it hasn't been present for a while. It's very faint. For all I know it's from bonking up against the new heater, though, and totally unrelated.

I've been having a really hard time keeping this tank at temperature (hence the new heater added last night). It seems to either want to be 86 or 92. This is annoying and not helpful, of course... at 92 he really gasps, though, even with lots of air. The new heater is set at 89 and it's at 86 right now but I attribute that to the fact that it's struggling to keep up with the 0 degree outside temp (my furnace is also struggling to maintain 68, which has me sitting here shivering. I like it warm.)

This is a bare bottom QT and the water is pristine. I'm basically doing 100% and re-adding the metro every day. pH is 7.6, moderately hard water, sponge filter and 2nd airstone going full time, only ambient light from a breeder tank next to him. Have treated only with metro over the last week. His poop, if you could call it that, is not stringy, but is entirely white/clear, given his total lack of stomach contents. Being semi-new to Discus, is it possible that it's slime coat being shed and not actually his poop? I've never seen him poop... this is just what I siphon out during the changes.

This guy is near cull-level of quality, but that doesn't mean I don't want to save him. Both for the experience and because there's a small element of concern that whatever caused this might be present in the good tank.

[Dave B]

Here are photos I just took. He didn't mind my presence at all, for whatever that's worth.

First is just a full body shot and one from behind with his gill flared (not sure how useful that is). His color got enhanced when I brightened it up. He's not really that blue.

Second is basically the same shot but one with and without flash. You can see the sore near his mouth.

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[hedut]

How about temperature is it right? the most important when metroing temp when you do wc every time temperature shouldn't go to low. and I never set up less than 90 F when do metroing and when do wc never less than that either and always work for me with in 5 days. good luck

[boxters]

This fish is in very poor condition. You will notice it has cloudy eyes. This is a sign of bacterial infection. My advice it should be put in a quarantine tank with the ph lowered gradually to around 5 over a period of a week. A broad spectrum anti-biotic like triple sulph wont hurt with lots of water changes, otherwise i hate to say bit this fish will almost certainly dye

[Dave B]

Hm. That counts as cloudy? The cases of cloudy eye I've seen in the past (back when I was starting out and though 40 nitrates was fine... pre-discus, of course) were much more pronounced. I wouldn't have even noticed that.

Guess I'm no diagnostician.

I don't have the ability to get down to 5. Perhaps I'll go grab some RO from a store nearby if that's necessary. I have never heard of that as a treatment. Lowering the pH seems like it might be enough stress to put him over the top.

Hendri, it's up to 88 now. (Finally, a reliable heater.) He doesn't seem to be able to handle 90.

[hedut]

less than 90 will take longer to cure. so you need find good heater

[Dave B]

Oh, I meant the fish. At 90 he starts getting really unhappy and gasping, even with tons of air being pumped in. I've no doubt the heater can get me up to 90.

[boxters]

Lowering ph kills bacteria allowing the fish to recover. Most bacteria can't survive at a low ph. On occasion I have dropped my ph to 4.5

[Eddie]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...lease-complete

It does appear to be bacterial but I'd dip the fish before administering any antibiotics.

And there is no need to raise the temp when treating with metro.

[Dave B]

I got all the info from the questionnaire in... was just saving space!

I've never done a dip. There's a first time for everything, though.

He's still not eating but I swear his mood has improved.

[Dave B]

After a dip and some sulfa his color is brightening up, fins look more normal, and I think he may have eaten. I didn't see him do it, but I swear I vaccuumed out fewer bloodworms than what I put in there for him. He also seems slightly less shy.

Meanwhile, I am now paranoid about cloudy eyes in all my other fish, seeing it in all of them even though it's probably just my imagination.

[Eddie]

After a dip and some sulfa his color is brightening up, fins look more normal, and I think he may have eaten. I didn't see him do it, but I swear I vaccuumed out fewer bloodworms than what I put in there for him. He also seems slightly less shy.

Meanwhile, I am now paranoid about cloudy eyes in all my other fish, seeing it in all of them even though it's probably just my imagination.

Get some pictures. Cloudy eye in all the fish might not be your imagination.

[Dave B]

Yeah that's what I'm worried about. This guy did live with my other fish, who in turn now live with the wilds that I was careful with... lot of good that did me, if I overlooked a symptom in the existing fish. (Kicks self in face.)

Update: Today was the first time I actually saw him while pooping. As expected, it's white. Long and white. But THICK. That surprised me. In the past, when my geos were sick, theirs would be a lot stringier.

I am reconsidering my thinking that he may be eating, though. If he ate, it wouldn't be white.

Here's the only existing pic I have that doesn't have flash glare in an eye. It's from 1/6/11. I'll take more when the lights come on. These guys I'm being paranoid about have a much more even gloss on their eyeballs, unlike this guy with more of a splotchy issue. I just worry that the gloss should be clearer...

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It looks worse in this photo than in real life, largely due to imperfect photography. But I suppose the presence of more cloud in the photo comes from its presence in real life plus my unsteady hand making it worse...

It will almost be a relief if I just have to treat all my tanks. At least then I'll be confident things are OK. Then again, that only applies if I treat correctly...

(This makes me feel really dumb... all the QT and precaution in the world does no good at all if you don't even notice a symptom.)

Edit:

OK, it seems pretty clear to me that I've just plain been asleep at the switch.

Now, to add on to the paranoia, I'm worried about the white fuzz near the male's mouth and lower gills too. I don't recall that being there before (and have no clear enough closeup photos to prove or disprove that).

So I can assume I have an advanced case of something in the blue guy, a newer milder case of it in the rest, and the wilds and/or other fish that look fine are probably going to get it.
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For what it's worth, my orangeheads are still breeding like clockwork, everyone eats, and my nitrates are at 5 even today, 3 days after the last 50% change. The male pictured had a forehead scrape on monday and already it has healed 100%... so conditions would seem to be good. I've been working very hard to keep things in order. Apparently I'm just blind.

(In my defense though, this is what I'm used to seeing for cloudy eyes, not just a slight haze. And usually the solution is to have cleaner water.)

I wonder, though, if the bacterial issue is just omnipresent and [thus far] harmless, and that there's something extra that is plaguing the blue guy... if everyone shares an affliction I'd expect another fish to have stopped eating or to at least have changed behavior a little. That hasn't happened at all.

[Eddie]

Might be chilodonella, looks like it. This would be a protozoa issue.


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[Dave B]

Really? That is a bit of a surprise.

None of the fish, even the worst one in the hospital, really exhibits any of the other symptoms listed here: http://www.fishvet.com/Chilodonella.htm or mirrors the symptoms I see when searching chilo in the threads here.

Particularly the part about "Distress is visibly obvious." I don't have any flashing or gasping or anything. Not even in the really sick one downstairs. The San Merah male has that crooked breathing that worried me when I first got him, but that was present even before that when he was breeding. It says nothing about the cloudy eyes either. When I moved this guy downstairs weeks ago it was just because he wasn't eating. At the time he didn't even look bad. (He got much worse, and now looks a bit more normal, though he's still not eating.)

I assume, though, that the cloudiness on the SM's gills is what tipped you off to this?

It would make sense that maybe they began to get irritated by the dirtiness that came with their heavy beefheart feedings while I was gone for Christmas. That's about when the really sick one stopped eating and it would not surprise me if perhaps it exceeded the filter's capacity and had some nitrite for a while (though again - I'd expect MUCH worse, like some obvious global symptoms quickly, if nitrites went up). And heck, it couldn't have been that bad even then, since the orangeheads continued to breed. They're not as sensitive as discus, but bad water conditions shuts them down pretty quickly. There was just a lot of debris for me to clean up when I got back.

Anyway, I'm no expert, and if you say it's chilo I believe you. Should I treat the guy in QT with Formalin and see how it goes before proceeding with the others? Would I want to treat the entire tank eventually? Perhaps a different course of action?