Captive Breed Heckels???

[Apistomaster]

It is very pleasing to me to see how much progress Heckel breeders have made.
It wasn't too many years ago when I discussed the possibility with Al about a dedicated Heckel topic.
It eventually became "The Heckel Project" topic.
My only regrets are that I will never be among those who have successfully bred them. I have tried over my life several times but never quite got there.
My congratulations and respect to all of those who did.
I hope you go on to establish different tank bred, purebred Heckel Discus lines and they become mainstream in the hobby.

[jawfish]

Lets bring back this tread from the dead :-)

Seriously. How time fly... I never got my project underway as I had decided at the time to concentrate on my domesticated discus... I've decided to just to make a full jump to wilds... of course this implies a Heckel project. I've decided to build a 140 gallon tank for them 48L X 30W X 23 H with a 75 gallon reservoir underneath. Anybody else is giving it a go or thinking about it ?

One thing I'd like to brainstorm is preventing PH crash... I got the crazy idea (not my idea... read that Manfred Gobel had suggested using it) of hooking a small calcium reactor to a PH meter but I'm wondering if the hardness is goingbto raise too fast.

Cheers

FRED

[Apistomaster]

Hi Fred,
My recommendation would be to increase the volume and frequency of the water changes. I don't think your pH would tend to crash as long as you changed about 70% of the total system's water volume about every 4th day. Using calcium reactor would tend to increase the TDS don't you think? Maybe I'm wrong but that is what I think may happen.
Heckels have always been my favorite species of wild Discus but the captive breeding of these fish is a tough nut to crack. This coming from someone who prefers wild Discus over domestics anyday.
My only use for domestics has always been as a commodity to be sold.
I hate the complications that often come with age. I have had to sell all my Discus and their tanks. I could no longer keep up with the care they demand and deserve.

[jawfish]

Hi Larry,

The word calcium reactor is overkill, I found the tread on here mentioning it. The link to the italian website is no longer valid
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...ice-for-low-pH

Its a 1 inch PVC tube about 14 inch high filled with calcium media. I agree that the TDS raise is bothering me... I'm going to run the tanks empty at a PH of 4.3 and conductivity at 30us just for the fun and see how fast the conductivity raises without the bioload.

I'm sorry to hear that you no longer have discus.

Fred

[tolga]

Hi Larry
Im grateful for all the help and advise you have given me in the past. I still go back and read some of your earlier posts on heckels. I did go ahead and set up my heckel tank in the end. 3 years on they are still going strong with a number of issues along the road. I wouldn't want to hijack the thread by going into all the details of my set up from the beginning but on Fred's question about the issue of aspiring a ph crash, I could say that it never happened to me. This could be due to the sheer volume of water (1000litres including sump) or the fact that the system is highly oxygen saturated with a fluidized k1 and a pool size oxydator in the sump which may contribute to ph stability. I've been on pure ro with only a small trace of mineral additive designed to provide some GH but no buffers at all not even crushed corrals etc. left to its own devices, my system will stabilize at around 5.5ph which is far from perfect but has been alright. Last year I've experimented with peat and dried leaves and the ph dropped to around 5. I have since moved away from black water conditions and installed a large purigen reactor. I'm stilll undecided as to whether or not I should go back to a more natural tea coloured water. I also experimented with muriatic acid and managed to bring the ph down to 4.5 but unless I use the acid with every water change, the ph would gradually creep up to 5.5. So I've stopped using the acid for the time being. My friend who has a much smaller tank and a canister filter system, however, had a different experience. His ph as far as I remember, plummeted to low 4's. His fish were fine but he was getting worried about his filter bacteria and decided to add crushed coral to his system. So every system is different. I have been away for two weeks recently. During this time the tank was left without any water changes. When I got back, I noticed my ph had remained the same. i don't measure my Kh anymore. I just measure my conductivity and it's around 180micro Siemens. I started paying more attention to the question of achieving some kind of a mineral balance in an attempt to try and replenish some of the calcium that gets lost due to the oxidation. Some people have spoken about using dosing pumps to add calcium and magnesium but not calcium carbonate as such. Anyhow, good luck with the project.
Tolga

[jawfish]

Thanks Tolga...

Hey don't be shy to describe your set-up... a 3 year old tread with 13 pages is there to discuss Inspiration is always welcomed

I am planning a large system close to your capacity i.e. 800 liters with the sump for a population of 8 fish. A small amount of crushed coral in the filter has been suggested also as a solution when trying to have them breed with the PH at 3.9-4.2 and the conductivity at 15us...

Yhea I need also to revisit this tread from page 1 to 13...

Cheers,

Fred

[Altum Nut]

If there is anyone who is most determined to succeed...it's you Fred. I just worry about the stability value of ph when it's that low. I don't see the TDS where you mentioned being as much of a problem to maintain. Take your time my friend and will be nice to see your progress project thread.
As for Larry...always a pleasure to hear from him. I hope he at least is able to make it out to the river to cast his favorite flies.

...Ralph

[tolga]

Hi Fred. Thank you for your comments. I might start that tread one of these days although this is still an ongoing project and there is plenty of room for improvement always. I think you should go ahead and make small adjustments if it becomes necessary. With 15 us you r talking almost pure ro as it comes out of the ro unit at around 10us depending on your unit ofcourse. With food and fish waist plus regular water changes, it could indeed stabilize around 15us. This is more or less what I've tried to do when I've started, albeit with a higher ph as I've tried to let the ph settle on its own without any external input. It was fine to start with but then I had this whirling thing. I'm not saying this to scare you and I'm certainly not an expert on this but I subsequently decided based on what I've read here and elsewhere that the lack of positive mineral ions due to constant oxidation in a closed environment might compromise the fishes osmoregulation even extreme soft water fishes such as heckel. I know these are the actual parameters in the wild where they live and breed but in captivity it may be more complicated somehow. I'm not exactly sure and I need to check it again but as far as I remember, Heiko Bleher suggested a conductivity below 100us when discussing the setting up of a nhamunda biotope aquarium as opposed to their actual amazon environment. I'm sure Altum angel keepers would have more experience in maintaining such extreme parameters. One thing that may make a difference though would be the use of peat and/or dried leaves. I think these humic substances (if that's the right word) work with the fishes mucus layer and maybe provide some kind of barrier. Maybe if had a proper black water type system things might have been different but my system is a room divider and as such it is open on all sides except one so I tried to go for clearity and to keep the dissolved organics as low as I could in the hope that my fish would adapt. This is, of course, not recommended for Heckels by the experts. So there you go. My two cents as they say.
Tolga

[jawfish]

Thanks Altum nut... I'll start a thread here in next month with the tank build and so forth... I do not expect Heckels before October, but theres plenty of things to do and questions that I need to answer by then.

Tolga, please start a tread, This sections is kinda slow... A little action is going to be welcomed by all

I got whilrling twice in the last 20 years. First time was with some Tefe, the second time was with some Stendker Kobalts. In both instances the PH was 6.5 and the hardness was about 160us. Not Pleasant.

Last month, in a facebook group, Bleher mentioned that the PH remains the same year round, but the conductivity varies, lowering of the conductivity would triggers spawning. So the plan would be get the Heckels, let them go trought a quarantine, then take care of them for a few months and start lowering the conductivity from 160 to 15 in late spring early summer, if nothing happens then bring back the conductivity in October and then try again the next year.

I agree to try to produce blackwater with a combination of Almonds leaves and peat. I already do it lightly for my breeding pairs, I just need to increase the amount of peat and leaves.

Nutrition is one thing I need to revisit my Bleher volume 1. I know it varies seasonally. I think this is part.

Another thing I've read Bleher mention a few times is sand ??? Does any one know why ?

Cheers,

Fred

[tolga]

Hi Fred, i think sand allows them to engage in their favourate activity of squirting water from their mouths to free the food particles and they do this all day long almost like eartheater cichlids. I decided to not have any bottom feeders to cut out completion. They sometimes swallow sand particles unintentionally and release them from their gills but sometimes they excrete them along with every thing else. I think the grain of sand needs to be fine otherwise bits might get stuck and cause a blockage as it happened with one or two of mine. I ended up having pool filter sand but the grains which are around 2mm may not have been fine enough as I was worried about compacting so it's always a balancing exercise I suppose also sand allows the detritus to remain on top. Thanks
Tolga

[tolga]

Sorry just a quick correction. I wasn't correct when I said pool filter sand. It's actually an aquarium sand similar to a PFS but not as fine.
Thanks

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi guys, in my conversions with Nandi (NanDiscus here on Simply) he always insists on sand too. Says the wild discus like to shift thru it looking for things to eat. Sort of supports their natural grazing way of eating. If you wish to maintain blackwater type conditions many altum and some wild discus keepers use Rooibos tea. Buy it loose and add a small amount to your water column. The tea has anti-fungal and anti-bacterial properties also. If you look thru this section there is a thread where a member got two pairs of heckels to spawn. Might be worth a read. Here is one of the thread with heckels breeding. http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...Heckel-Spawn!!. The water parameters might surprise you.
Pat

[tolga]

Hi Pat thank you for this link. This is one amazing achievement. Shame we never got to find out what happened to the fry.
My other heckel keeper friend started to use Rooibos tea in his tank and is very happy with the results.
Tolga

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Pat thank you for this link. This is one amazing achievement. Shame we never got to find out what happened to the fry.
My other heckel keeper friend started to use Rooibos tea in his tank and is very happy with the results.
Tolga

The thing I find interesting Tolga is the ph is not the super low ph people recommend for heckels. I am not saying not to keep heckels at a low ph but rather a ph bump might help be a trigger for spawning. For example when we read the measurements taken on Amazon waters they seem to be generally taken during the dry season. Discus do not breed during the dry season but at the beginning and during the wet season. So what happens to the water to trigger spawning beside being higher and cooler?

[DiscusOnly]

Pat,

Where do you get your Rooibos tea? I've been out of almond leaves for the past 6 months. Maybe I'll try the tea instead.

Van