Captive Breed Heckels???

[jawfish]

I've looked at Andre's facebook, and website... In a way it confims it can be done. Its a good source of insparations and those videos are just great...

Now I agree there probably more to it than water paremeters i.e. PH, Hardness, Temperature etc... Maybe there's a trigger...Yes food could play a factor, may be not just the diet itself but also the quantity... could also ligthing conditions and cycles/length ?... what about temperature fluctuations or changes in water change valumes i.e. the large influx of new water after a period of stagnation ?

Correct me if I'm wrong but If I remember right Wild discus reproduce in the rainy season... Conditions and food diversity and quantity varies between season could the females require a dry season and then the start of the rain season conditions to lay eggs ?

Like I said I'm intrigue, plus I've got a nice 150 gallon tank that would be perfect for a Heckel project... I'm also under the impression that getting younger fish for the project would increase the chances for success... What the smallest size can someone get ? I've heard of size restrictions for export...

cheers

Fred

[zchauvin]

I've looked at Andre's facebook, and website... In a way it confims it can be done. Its a good source of insparations and those videos are just great...

Now I agree there probably more to it than water paremeters i.e. PH, Hardness, Temperature etc... Maybe there's a trigger...Yes food could play a factor, may be not just the diet itself but also the quantity... could also ligthing conditions and cycles/length ?... what about temperature fluctuations or changes in water change valumes i.e. the large influx of new water after a period of stagnation ?

Correct me if I'm wrong but If I remember right Wild discus reproduce in the rainy season... Conditions and food diversity and quantity varies between season could the females require a dry season and then the start of the rain season conditions to lay eggs ?

Like I said I'm intrigue, plus I've got a nice 150 gallon tank that would be perfect for a Heckel project... I'm also under the impression that getting younger fish for the project would increase the chances for success... What the smallest size can someone get ? I've heard of size restrictions for export...

cheers

Fred

Good question, I plan to get a 240 by next year and get a few heckels for it when the season comes back around.

[Apistomaster]

In 2006 I bought ten subadult Heckels which were 3-1/2 to 3-3/4 inches. They were the smallest Heckels I have ever had. I had three pairs form and they took things as far as guarding suitable spawning sites and doing pre-spawn cleaning but that is as far as I have ever been able to get. I have had other groups of larger Heckels reach the same stage but never got any further. Heckels like to eat Spirulina and Earth Worm Sticks. Other wild Discus will eat Earth Worm Sticks but show little interest in Spirulina Sticks.
I sold my last group about 4 years later since it did not look like they would ever breed.
They grew to 5-1/2 and 6 inches which is close to their normal adult sizes in the wild. Heckels are the smallest of the three Discus species.

[jawfish]

Thanks Apistomaster...

I figure this to be a long term project...

They may be the smallest of the 3 Discus species, and I find them to be the most delicate in looks yet in my eyes they are the most desirable of all the discus species... that center bar adds something, in my mind at least.

Some people are saying to stay away from beef heart with heckels. I was reading Andre's presentation, well at least from the google translater and it was mentioned that he did feed them beefheart. With beefheart adding vegetable and fruits is not an issue, then again which fruits to add ? If not using beefheart how and what to give becomes interesting also...

Cheers,

Fred

[damian_ireland]

I've looked at Andre's facebook, and website... In a way it confims it can be done. Its a good source of insparations and those videos are just great...

Now I agree there probably more to it than water paremeters i.e. PH, Hardness, Temperature etc... Maybe there's a trigger...Yes food could play a factor, may be not just the diet itself but also the quantity... could also ligthing conditions and cycles/length ?... what about temperature fluctuations or changes in water change valumes i.e. the large influx of new water after a period of stagnation ?

Correct me if I'm wrong but If I remember right Wild discus reproduce in the rainy season... Conditions and food diversity and quantity varies between season could the females require a dry season and then the start of the rain season conditions to lay eggs ?

Like I said I'm intrigue, plus I've got a nice 150 gallon tank that would be perfect for a Heckel project... I'm also under the impression that getting younger fish for the project would increase the chances for success... What the smallest size can someone get ? I've heard of size restrictions for export...

cheers

Fred

Interesting opinions Fred. I am going to move my Geos on soon as the are spawning like crazy. I wonder will the fact I have wild blues in the tank also mean that if the is any breeding it will be crossed.

[kevin joseph]

can you or could it be done, cross heckel male with a heckel cross female and keep line breeding till the offspring are back to looking more like a wild heckel? artificial heckel type thing.

[jawfish]

can you or could it be done, cross heckel male with a heckel cross female and keep line breeding till the offspring are back to looking more like a wild heckel? artificial heckel type thing.

Well that's kind like cheating

In Soh's second book discus genetics seems quite intertwine. I doubts you could ever really go back to a true breeding artificial heckel. I think we need to crack the code to get them to breed. The goal is to get some homebreed heckels of F2 or F3 generation were hopefully they would be a little easier to breed.

If they are not laying eggs the simple reason is that one or several of the Heckel needs are not being met. Propagation of the species is a basic instinct. For it not to happen is that something is fundamentally not right. Discus keepers have been able to have heckels survive: That is to eat and live for several years. The issue is getting them to thrive i.e. Getting them to breed. There something missing for the fish to move on from surviving to propagating. Biology teachs us that in order to do so, the animal conditions must support population growth. I just love theory... It's doesn't mean much in the real world sometimes... So the Question is what's missing ?

Several have mentionned that the fish were getting into the motion, so this leads me to believe that these Discus keepers had their Heckels go from surviving to thriving. Why didn't they lay eggs ? That's the Million $ question. 6 or 8 heckels may simply not be a proper number to start with, maybe we need 15-20 fish, just to increase the odds of having 1 female not being so difficult

Just as I'm typing this I'm just glad to see this pop up NEW Acrylic tank build http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...lic-tank-build

Hmmm Something like a 96 inch long tank by 30 inch wide by 24 inch high would be perfect...

I'm still going to have a go with my 150 gallon first. in the mean time I need to figure severals things. Filtration, Water processing and getting comfortable with a tank at the proper water perameters with some fish in it...

Cheers,

Fred

[TURQ64]

can you or could it be done, cross heckel male with a heckel cross female and keep line breeding till the offspring are back to looking more like a wild heckel? artificial heckel type thing.

This angle of the dangle has been asnd is currently being done..The trouble seems to be keeping Heckel traits in the offspring........

[Apistomaster]

I believe Heckels are a very sociable species. I have always wondered if they were kept in larger groups in an impractically large tank or pool if that would make the difference.
Heckels have always been the Discus I wanted to breed most but after trying many times over more than 4 decades I concluded I had little more than a snow ball's chance in Hades of pulling it off and have given up the idea.
It is easy to get them to the point of pairing and preliminary pre-spawn behaviors but really hard to push them past that stage.
I do recommend that you add Spirulina Sticks to their diet as they do increase the vegetable matter in their diet and because of the way the sticks soften the Discus can and do sift the bottom to find all the particles. H. Bleher's studies of stomach contents of wild fish shows that about 50% of their diet consists of detritus from the bottom and the stick foods allow them to feed in a way that is very natural for them. www.kensfish.com sells both Spirulina and Earth worm sticks. I stopped using beef heart on Discus several years ago because I found that my wild Blues and the Heckels I had did fine on these Stick foods. Heckels are the only wilds that like Spirulina sticks. I use frozen blood worms and Tetra Color Bits but my Blues' staple food is earth worm sticks.

[jawfish]

I believe Heckels are a very sociable species. I have always wondered if they were kept in larger groups in an impractically large tank or pool if that would make the difference.
Heckels have always been the Discus I wanted to breed most but after trying many times over more than 4 decades I concluded I had little more than a snow ball's chance in Hades of pulling it off and have given up the idea.
It is easy to get them to the point of pairing and preliminary pre-spawn behaviors but really hard to push them past that stage.
I do recommend that you add Spirulina Sticks to their diet as they do increase the vegetable matter in their diet and because of the way the sticks soften the Discus can and do sift the bottom to find all the particles. H. Bleher's studies of stomach contents of wild fish shows that about 50% of their diet consists of detritus from the bottom and the stick foods allow them to feed in a way that is very natural for them. www.kensfish.com sells both Spirulina and Earth worm sticks. I stopped using beef heart on Discus several years ago because I found that my wild Blues and the Heckels I had did fine on these Stick foods. Heckels are the only wilds that like Spirulina sticks. I use frozen blood worms and Tetra Color Bits but my Blues' staple food is earth worm sticks.

I dunno if it would make the difference, but it would increase the odds. Plus I think it would be a really cool display tank, and since Heckels have different requirements it make sense to give them their special corner.

Thanks for the tip on the kenfish sticks... I was wondering if anybody had oppened the stomach content ? Over the years I've accumulated many Discus books, but I have to admitt that the Heckel content is alway dim... Is the Bleher Discus Volume 1 any different ?

I've got good white worm cultures going on and started 2 new red wrigglers cultures... Next step is building a new peat bomb. I had one years ago, but got rid of it when I got out of the hobby 10 years ago...Oh well..

Cheers,

Fred

[morgs8u]

Has anyone tried having a higher tank say 1m +
cause in the wild they breed during floods mabye it might have to do with pressure
???????????????

[morgs8u]

mabye having it half capacity then a rapid water increase

[damian_ireland]

Well, I am getting another 4 heckels and I am going to clear out my Geos and the other odd bits and bobs. That will leave me with 8 Heckels and 3 Blues.... will keep ye updated

[Apistomaster]

A very large and deep tank is probably better than a shallow 24 inch deep tank although Andre's documented success shows that it is possible to breed Heckels in captivity.
They need such soft and acid water that you can not get the pH down to 4.0 or lower relying on peat alone. It is better to use small amounts of Muriatic acid to get a stable pH between 3.5 and 4.0. I prefer to use Cattapa(Indian Almond leaves to get the organic tint over peat.
Cattapa leaves are sold on eBay and Aquabid. As they decay they provide some detritus that Heckels love to pick through. It may add a bit of mess but that is a more natural habitat than a pristinely maintained tank provides.
I use Cattapa leaves extensively in all my black water type tanks and in my fancy pleco breeding tanks.
I only have 10 F1 Nhamunda Blue Discus now and they are just reaching maturity and beginning their pair formation. They love earth worm sticks and are not a black water Discus species so I do not use Cattapa leaves in their tank.

[Moon]

Larry
Have you checked the ingredient list of the earthworm sticks? Earth worm is number 10. There are other items like corn starch, gluten, fish meal etc way before earth worm is listed. I am wondering what percentage of the composition is earthworms.