Earth to dale Jordan

[jimmyjoe]

Ken, I am not insinuating anything wrong here all I brought up after hearing Dale sold some of his breeders was I wonder what is happening now. So, I see's this here thread an read it and after all is said an done Ken the last time we exchanged e-mail's you wrote I would be getting my fish last week. I was respecting your space with the passing of your friend I'm just wondering out loud. Hey, I was going to contact you this coming week, but I guess you're back to normal, so you could have gotten back with me also. I'm sorry it came across with the sound of disrespect, please contact me. I'll contact you if I had your phone #, gosh I'm in trouble again.................Jim

[Moon]

That actually makes me happy. He is a whiz with the wilds and has a lot to offer.

That is so true.

[dean9922]

+1 Moon....

[Discus Origins]

Dale is one of the nicest people I know and always went out of his way to help anybody. It's a shame what happened with the F1 fish and all the criticisms he and Ken received from people who have never bred the same fish he had. Who are we to have judged or assumed how the fish would have ended up? I've never raised any Solomon or Inanu F1s, has anyone else?

Anyways, I hope he decides to get back into commercial breeding one of these days, it would be a great loss for the discus community if he doesn't.

Mark

[William Palumbo]

Anyone who has those juvies mentioned above, have you any updates on the progress of them?...Bill

[Jennie]

I'm sorry Mark, I believe it went beyond breeding and into the market place where money was exchanged for fish that should have never been sold.. Defects were evident from the start.. That's the character I see that you don't..Bill, I have no updated pics, but defects are still there, though gills did slightly repair themselves the chin did not.

Dale is one of the nicest people I know and always went out of his way to help anybody. It's a shame what happened with the F1 fish and all the criticisms he and Ken received from people who have never bred the same fish he had. Who are we to have judged or assumed how the fish would have ended up? I've never raised any Solomon or Inanu F1s, has anyone else?

Anyways, I hope he decides to get back into commercial breeding one of these days, it would be a great loss for the discus community if he doesn't.

Mark

[Discus Origins]

Jennie,

I'm not going to discuss Dale's character, he's not able to defend himself. But I am familiar with your threads and comments so if that's how you based your opinion we can break that down.

Ken offered to replace or refund your fish. You turned both offers down saying you wanted to grown them out. Sure money was exchanged, its a business transaction. The only thing a supplier can do to make things right is either by refunding or replacing the fish. What more did you want from this? It was your decision to keep the fish, but you were still wanting to put a negative feedback on the seller?

Dale also posted publicly that he was dealing with water chemisty, there was no deception in this. When the fish were made available, Ken commented that these fish were not for the average hobbyists, Dale and Ken both knew these fish would be different. Wild F1s, especially strains that have not been bred before, can not be predicted or assumed to develop like domestic young. In one of your threads, you posted that you 'hate raising baby fish'. Then why did you buy these 2in TL fish...which meant they were only 1 1/2in in the body. Had you raised fish from this size before?

If the defects were evident from the beginning, why were there nothing but positive comments until weeks later? Then 'experts' started to chime in about what the fish looked like. These 'experts', 90% who have never spawned and raised the F1s, had nothing to compare except for domestics they were familiar with....needless to say NONE had any experience with F1 Solomons or Inanus. Ken held some of the same group and grew them out. I believe he posted pix on one of your threads and the gill plates filled in just like Dale said they would and there were no chin problems. You just stated that the gill plates had started to repair themselves with the fish you have, now there is chin problems? I see weak chins in domestics, its common. I have seen chin problems in adult wilds, and they grew up in the Amazon. Please post some pix of the fish in their current stage so we can see what has improved and what has not.

I have spawned wilds and raised their fry. I know F1 fry do not grow as evenly as domestics. I almost culled an entire group of blues years ago because I thought they had gill plate problems. 4 months later they all looked perfect and everything caught up just like Dale explained. I have a batch of 1 month old Cuipeaus right now, they ALL look like they have short gills and they are in tap water 150ppm. The parents are top quality wilds, so the 'defect' is neither genetic nor water chemistry related. In two months they will develop into perfect young discus when the development catches up with the body.

I'm not here to sway your personal opinion of Dale, everybody is entitled to their own. I just don't believe you can attack someones character because of a purchase, especially one that they attempted to make right with you.

[Discusgeo2]

I got an email from Dale a couple of weeks ago and he is taking a break. I got 20 of his Discus and they are doing very good in my tank and getting ready to move them into a larger tank. They look good and I haven't had a single problem with them.

[roundfishross]

this is just MY opinion take it for what its worth. for the last few months I have been dealing with fry that have the same type of gill deformities. these fry all came from breeders which had all previously spawned for me and they all threw great fry. in my case I have always supplemented my water with the same type and amount of calcium and magnesium. the culprit was a bactierial issue with the breeders, although the breeders appeaerd in perfect health 95% of all the fry had thick gills or dorsal fin deformities. in the last 3 mos I have had to cull over 1000 discus fry due to these problems. now there were a few in each batch I could have sold( and really really could have used the money)but I decided not to. I felt it was just not the right thing to do..

now I think these problems are all behind me( fingers crossed) all the current fry look fantastic no thick gill and no dorsal deformities! going out on a limb here, I think he got in too big of a hurry and when problems arose( and I was very tempted to do the same thing) decided to throw in the towell.

additionally the fry with thick gills if grown out do tend to repair themselves but not completely it will be appearant when they are grown.

FWIW Leo ross

[TURQ64]

I don't want to defame anyone or muddy the issue. But when things started snowballing, both Dale and Ken recoiled and both acted in different directions. I am an experienced breeder, wanted the fish, and stated so repeatedly on the phone, email, and a few short posts here.I understood the issue, and had no complaints.I was looking to future breeding stock..Dale said 'Be patient, Ken's just hot, you'll get your fish'...So to add to the confusion, they both shunted a customer, and that's another story. I didn't want a refund, I was patiently waiting for fish which were supposed to be shipped well before the blowup...I would have a hard time purchasing fish from either now, due to the 'up yours' stance they took by sending a refund...When Hans had trouble, I understood, waited patiently, and eventually received my fish..There, it's off my chest and I can go back to water changes...and my own future crosses...
fwiw, Gary Bergman

[Second Hand Pat]

Mark, Jennie got the Piwowarski Red Turquoise. These are domestics, not wild F1s.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...-Red-Torquoise

[Eddie]

this is just MY opinion take it for what its worth. for the last few months I have been dealing with fry that have the same type of gill deformities. these fry all came from breeders which had all previously spawned for me and they all threw great fry. in my case I have always supplemented my water with the same type and amount of calcium and magnesium. the culprit was a bactierial issue with the breeders, although the breeders appeaerd in perfect health 95% of all the fry had thick gills or dorsal fin deformities. in the last 3 mos I have had to cull over 1000 discus fry due to these problems. now there were a few in each batch I could have sold( and really really could have used the money)but I decided not to. I felt it was just not the right thing to do..

now I think these problems are all behind me( fingers crossed) all the current fry look fantastic no thick gill and no dorsal deformities! going out on a limb here, I think he got in too big of a hurry and when problems arose( and I was very tempted to do the same thing) decided to throw in the towell.

additionally the fry with thick gills if grown out do tend to repair themselves but not completely it will be appearant when they are grown.

FWIW Leo ross

Sounds like a fix Leo! Great move.

[Altum Nut]

Dale is still keeping and breeding discus. He sold some of his stock to Vern and some to me.

Hey Joe,

I don't know yet where Vern has his fishroom but I know where yours is....but don't be to hard on me if some of Dale's pairs go missing from your fishroom.
Missed you at the Ajax Auction today.

...Ralph

[roundfishross]

Sounds like a fix Leo! Great move.

why, thank you kind sir!!!

[Second Hand Pat]

Hey Joe,

I don't know yet where Vern has his fishroom but I know where yours is....but don't be to hard on me if some of Dale's pairs go missing from your fishroom.
Missed you at the Ajax Auction today.

...Ralph

Ralph, need help