TDS - Water and hitting the Discus sweet spot

[atitagain]

Being that my tap had a PH of 8.1 to 8.6 after aging I wanted to improve it but do it simply. I got two 55 gallon barrels and use one for RO and the other to age my tap.

I use a 42 gallon Brute to mix and pretty much have my mix nailed. It's a 65/35 which gives me a PH of 7.4.

Here's the question.... My TDS is around 80 to 85 consistently.

Is this two low and if it is where is the sweet spot. More importantly how do I get it there without turning into a mad scientist?

Correct me if I'm wrong but this lower TDS is some of the reason that my discus are throwing eggs all over my display tank.

I've seen real improvement in my fish since I put them on this plan with daily WC. Growth rate is good on most and I still have two problem children but overall it's had a positive impact. My end goal is to give my fish good quality water but for it not to be a huge PITA to get it right.

[Sameen]

Marc i am learning too, but as far as i know, hardness only affects the hatch rate not egg counts... Number of eggs laying usually increase every year with every new spawning cycle and as the female gets older and more matured. And again, as far as i know, having a hard water helps to grow discus faster as the water will be full of minerals. But too hard water can get them dehydrated just the way we get dehydrated after drinking hyper concentrated solvent such as coffee... it has to many dissolved stuff in it than our blood... so we technicaly lose water and get thirsty... this can happen with fishes too, bu i am not too sure. but i know some bosses raise fries in RO waste water to get stronger fries... and soft water helps in spawning but after hatching, its better to change into harder water gradually until its totally tap water and u can provide this stable condition in a regular basis.
Thanks, i hope i am not wrong.
Sameen

[atitagain]

Thanks Sameen

The water is pretty stable but I think from what I've read the lower TDS promotes (for lack of a better term) breeding. I want them to stop and I don't want to get rid of my two females which are both turq's to get them to stop.

I read a thread here that someone used there RO brine to reconstitute their RO. I thought it was either William Palumbo or warlock and did a search but came up empty.

I was hoping that someone using brine was willing to let me pick there brain.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

I believe William Palumbo uses straight tap water. I don't think you are are going to ever find the "sweet spot" for discus unless you are as you say, a "mad scientist."

From some of the articles I have read here the lower TDS is for breeding purposes only. I keep my TDS between 80 and 100 in all my tanks and for the juvies its higher because I am using more tap water maybe 150 to 200.

Keep in mind though that there are so many opinions on this topic as I found out over the past year that I think if we focus so much attention on getting it right, we will go crazy.

[Skip]

not me..
john nicholson has fish breeding and raising fry in RO WASTE.. is that what you mean by brine ro

[Discus Origins]

Marc, your water parameters are actually fine for domestic discus and even for breeding. You have relatively low TDS tap so I wouldn't worry about ph. Because of the lower TDS your water will have less buffering capacity to adjust ph chemically. It will take you time and patience to find the equation with additives. For your water I would suggest keeping bag of almond or ketang leaves in your aging barrel to lower ph if that is still your goal.

[atitagain]

not me..
john nicholson has fish breeding and raising fry in RO WASTE.. is that what you mean by brine ro

That's what I meant warlock, RO waste. I wish I could find or would have bookmarked the thread. Somebody here posted about reconstituting RO with RO waste.

Marc, your water parameters are actually fine for domestic discus and even for breeding. You have relatively low TDS tap so I wouldn't worry about ph. Because of the lower TDS your water will have less buffering capacity to adjust ph chemically. It will take you time and patience to find the equation with additives. For your water I would suggest keeping bag of almond or ketang leaves in your aging barrel to lower ph if that is still your goal.

jimg turned me onto the almond leaves and I use them but mostly for the color. The wife and I like the darker color.

I'm OK with my PH my interest in concern is more on the TDS side of my water. With the lower TDS I worry about PH swings and my Discus keep dropping eggs, I'm really not wanting to breed.

I would use straight tap but my PH after aging at the lowest has been 8.4 and is normally 8.6. If the PH wasn't so high it would work out great because the TDS is around 160.

My water changes now are pretty frequent (daily) but the fishing and boating season is here and my wife and I take off on Friday nights and don't get home until Sunday. That's got me a little worried.

So I was thinking about the TDS and trying to nudge it up a little giving the water a little more buffering capacity and a by-product being that the fish would stop dropping eggs every 5 days.

[roundfishross]

bump the temp and hardness up to curb the egg laying,

[atitagain]

bump the temp and hardness up to curb the egg laying,

Eddie suggested using seachem reef builder to bump up the kh a while back. The heat part is easy but what is the best way to improve the hardness without raising the PH?

[Jhhnn]

So long as your discus are happy & healthy, they won't stop breeding, or trying to. It's what they do. Some are just sexier than others. I don't think moderate hardness or PH affects their desires a lot, but rather the egg hatch rate.

The PH of your tap water seems a little high for discus happiness, but I can't speak to that with any authority. My own Denver tap water varies seasonally from 7.6 to 8.2, and my discus are fine in it. KH~85, GH~145. If you want better buffering capacity, change your RO blend to accomplish that. My own experience indicates that any PH in the range of my own is fine for domestics.

[atitagain]

Jhhnn, I'm not going to mess with the water anymore. One thing I can say with authority that mine were definitely not happy in straight tap.

We were watching the tank tonight and I've got three pair cutting the tank in half. We may just sell the females turq's, both are proven and the tank would mellow a little.

The water is good now, it's working and in the long run unless I remove the females I'll have 50% less real estate in the tank.

And thanks!

[Len]

Marc i am learning too, but as far as i know, hardness only affects the hatch rate not egg counts... Number of eggs laying usually increase every year with every new spawning cycle and as the female gets older and more matured. And again, as far as i know, having a hard water helps to grow discus faster as the water will be full of minerals. But too hard water can get them dehydrated just the way we get dehydrated after drinking hyper concentrated solvent such as coffee... it has to many dissolved stuff in it than our blood... so we technicaly lose water and get thirsty... this can happen with fishes too, bu i am not too sure. but i know some bosses raise fries in RO waste water to get stronger fries... and soft water helps in spawning but after hatching, its better to change into harder water gradually until its totally tap water and u can provide this stable condition in a regular basis.
Thanks, i hope i am not wrong.
Sameen

The reason you get somewhat dehydrated after drinking too much coffee has nothing to do with the mineral content. Tea, coffee and alcohol are diuretics (they make you urinate more)

Besides that, never waste valuable coffee on your fish -- drink it yourself and you'll feel much better