SD forum/members' poor reputation ...???? What can we do about it ?

[discuspaul]

I hesitate to post this, but it's a very serious subject for me, and I'd like to get it out in the open. Before I start, remember I'm just the messenger, and one doesn't shoot the messenger !

I've belonged to SD and 4 other forums for up to 2 years now, and do frequent, as well as actively participate in, all of them on pretty much a daily basis.

Over the 2 years, without exaggeration, I have read numerous, several dozens at least, of quite negative comments about SD and it's members. I will mention that in one case alone, aquariacentral.com for example, which has over 100,000 members, and there are over 100 members viewing each new thread all the time on a regular daily basis - I have read SD getting dissed many times (so you can imagine how many people read the bad news about us - are you getting the picture ?)

This forum and many of it's members (not all - there are in fact a number of members who have been singled out and being very helpful, particularly to newbies to discus-keeping) have been called: - "crusty" - "negative" - "condescending" - "overly critical" - "made us look like fools"- "nay-sayers" - "dumped all over us" - "not at all helpful" - "made fun of me" etc. etc. - the list goes on.

This usually occurs when someone brings up a question on discus (and there are many discus-keepers, or wanna-be's, on these other forums - believe me). Someone else will suggest going to the sd forum for help, and then someone else will pipe in to say: " I tried that - hell of a lot of good it did me - they pee'd all over me" - or words to that effect.
Making a long story shorter, I for one have defended this forum & it's members many times, as have a number of others that I know - April Ross for one - an SD sponsor, and member of our local forum, bcaquaria.com, as I am, and which forum also has quite a number of discus-keepers. There are other folks besides myself who have defended SD on e.g. plantedtank.net, also a very popular forum with many interested discus-keepers.

My point is, folks, what can we do about this - to turn this negative press around ???
Not tooting my own horn, but I very frankly do my best to be careful in how I respond to questions about discus (to newbies in particular), on any forum, and often offer to help them out in any way I can - by suggesting they can feel free to PM me at any time if I can be of any assistance- to the point that I feel I'm risking being thought of as a "grandstander" of some kind.

Would very much like to hear others' comments & suggestions about this serious matter, IMHO.
Paul

[jarret8x]

I think one thing is that people come here with their mind set on one way to do something. And when people tell them to do 50% daily water changes for instance they may take offense to people saying they need to care for their fish better. I for one like this forum and the people on it. I think they give great advice and know alot so I'm willing to listen. I think when people come in not wanting to listen to what others have to say they will take offense them bash the forum on other forums.

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[hedut]

I think one thing is that people come here with their mind set on one way to do something. And when people tell them to do 50% daily water changes for instance they may take offense to people saying they need to care for their fish better. I for one like this forum and the people on it. I think they give great advice and know alot so I'm willing to listen. I think when people come in not wanting to listen to what others have to say they will take offense them bash the forum on other forums.

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+1

it is true we here to help but, some newbie some times think more better than us and some times I think they should learn the hard way. I loss more than 20+ fish when I start and before knowing SD and until now doesn't make me as discus expert, I'm still learning. point is not all people willing to listen , one man junk other man treasure

[Discus-n00b]

I also think its that way of thinking as well. I've been around since the better part of 2003 and let me tell you, this board is NICE compared to what it used to be, and even then it was just more blunt and to the point....not so much mean. Its like being told that rocking chair passed down in your family over the years isn't worth anything, some people can't take that kind of truth about their stuff. Some people take criticism better then others. I started all the wrong ways with discus, and here I am doing it right and enjoying every minute of this community for 8 years now.

I take all other non specific boards with a grain of salt. This is where people are 100% discus. Other places people might have a discus or two bought from the LFS, but this is where I want my advice coming from.....harsh or not. The discus community is close, always has been. Everyone seems to know everyone. So those new to the community may not feel right at home at first, pair that with critisim of their fish or way of keeping them, and they may not want to stick around to learn.

[yim11]

As stated above, I think the issue is limited to a small group of people that didn't respond well to suggestions on care or quality. I don't think the forum reputation is as bad as the OP presents it to be. You can't please all the people all the time.

[seanyuki]

hey Paul.....you are doing a good job here and other forums and helping people understanding discus....perhaps we can have coffee next week and talk about it.

[ericatdallas]

Paul, I do see a lot of discus questions there. I don't usually say anything on those, but I do see you respond to a lot of them with a link to this site and your sticky I think the issue, as hinted above, is that a lot of people come on and ask questiosn before reading the FAQs.

I went to another board asking for help with other fish. I mentioned I had discus and a lot of people there gave me advice about discus (which isn't what I asked about). What's worse, most of the advice that was given fell in the voodoo, myth, or outdated advice category. I bring this example up as an illustration of the perspective of the other hobbyists. Many just plain refuse to accept best practices. Worse, IMO, is that there are many people who refuse to accept that something is considered poor practice. It's like a mentality of, "Oh, I've been raising goldfish like this for years, the Discus people just don't know what they're doing."

IMO, general aquarium forums are great to talk about the hobby in general, equipment, water chemistry, trends, etc but are hit-or-miss for species specific topics. In the short time I've been here, I've seen what everyone else has previously mentioned, and that's people come here with preconceived notions and feel upset when that advice is countered by the advice they get from the people that are typically very knowledgeable about other types of fish in different forums.

I do remember a very similar topic/thread was brought up about this a while back. Not with this specific example, but it was a new member messenging a long-time SD member about how they felt 'dumped' on, or something to that effect.

I do sometimes think we do collectively mock newbies. I don't think we're aware that we're doing it, but we'll say, after 10-20 messages of trying to talk them out of it, someone will say, "Yeah, well, good luck with that. Let us know if you figure out a better way of doing it, but if not, more than likely, feel free to post on the disease section." Something like that. I do see more overt insults, but those are rare (at least, I think they are).

So on the one hand, I'm sympathetic to the fact they feel like we're bashing them. On the other, if you're going to come here with a decision and nothing we say will alter it, then why bother asking at all?

IMO, I also think that general forums are more geared towards the beginner. If you're a beginner (in the aquarium hobby) you might interpret advice as condescending because people here have more experience and talk a certain way.

"crusty" - What does this mean? Set in our ways? Probably true...
"negative" - disagree with the way they want to do something? Probably true in a way...
"condescending" - I can see that at times...
"overly critical" - overly sensitive?
"made us look like fools"- I guess I'll need an example of this...
"nay-sayers" - same as negative...
"dumped all over us" - probably true, but also probably taken the wrong way.
"not at all helpful" - in that, we don't want you to put 20 discus in a 30G tank and there's no way we're going to tell you the best way of doing that... probably true
"made fun of me" - a combination of the above, need an example, and I've seen this at times, but I think it's both rare and not unique to this forum.

[Keith Perkins]

Thanks for the thread Paul. Hopefully people will take it as food for thought whether they agree with it or not. Knowing you a tad from our time together here on SD I'm confident your post is accurate as to what you've seen and encountered in other forums. Maybe, just maybe, occasionally something will get worded better now than it would have been without this thread.

[discuspaul]

Keith, if that's the best we get out of this, then it's surely good enough !
You know I love this forum, and the vast majority of it's members, but I can't help but feel that some of us, at times perhaps, take a little bit too much of a superior approach (and I'm including myself in this) in dealing with newbies/members of other forums, etc. when responding to their sincere, conscientious requests for info or help regarding discus.
I know that I, as well as many of you out there, can tell the difference between a "malcontent's" bashing of SD on their home forums, and an objectively disappointed feeling over the manner in which one was treated here on SD. Point I'm trying to make, is that I'm reading too many of the latter type of reactions out there.

[discuspaul]

hey Paul.....you are doing a good job here and other forums and helping people understanding discus....perhaps we can have coffee next week and talk about it.

Thanks, Francis.
And yes, let's get together for coffee sometime soon. Perhaps you'll attend Shelley's planned discus group get-together later next month, and we can renew acquaintance at that time.

[seanyuki]

Hi Paul......since i have to work on Sundays and only available after 6 pm........perhaps I can meet Shelley and the gang later that evening for supper.....keep in touch.

Thanks, Francis.
And yes, let's get together for coffee sometime soon. Perhaps you'll attend Shelley's planned discus group get-together later next month, and we can renew acquaintance at that time.

[bonsai dave]

Good post Paul. keep up the good work. I can't wait to meet up fellow discus keepers in BC soon..

[April]

I think when newbies come on and show their first fish we tend to look down our noses at the quality as alot of us have become perfectionists and try to achieve the ultimate discus I'm shape and health. I think we tend to forget how we all started
discus snobs
Perhaps?
I'm guilty also as I see fish pics
Posted on local forums and don't dare comment especially as I sell them.
You know the saying if you can't
Say serving nice don't say anything st all.
But them that's not educating. Some people want criticism some don't and resent having their fish criticized.
It's
Been an issue all
Along. That's why the university was started so if people want their fish judged they go there. Not to be discussed in pjotogallery or beginner section unless asked.

[roclement]

I seldom go to other forums to talk discus, had an argument with someone on monsterfish because he was giving newbs wrong info on discus and arguing with a member of this forum about his point of view, he even tried to compare his horrible domestics with our members beautiful wilds saying how much more colorful his were!
The reality is that people overall don't want to know how to keep discus, they are happy with sub par fish, in poorly maintained tanks, then they come here to show us discus keepers how its done and get blasted, so they hate us...people like tat don't want help, they want their egos stroked!
Look at the amount of sub par fish submitted for rating in the University, people really see fish with an owners eye, not with proper scrutiny and when you get honesty it hurts...

Rodrigo

[Ryan]

I see this a lot on Monster Fish Keepers (which is part of Aquaria Central) as well. I'm not really bothered by it. The beauty of the internet is that you find a community that works for you. There are multiple discus boards and multiple general aquaria boards. Some will strive to be the best discus hobbyist they can be while others just want a couple colorful fish to go in a community tank. The latter probably won't want to invest the time and effort that we often suggest here on this forum. Some people are not in the discus hobby to breed fish or achieve perfection.

Aquaria Central may have a ton of members, but it's also a board that covers the entire aquarium hobby. Considering this site focuses on one fish, I'd say 20,000+ members and 740,000+ posts aren't too shabby. We'll keep doing our thing and other sites will keep doing theirs.